Would you choose to self-pub over trad pub?

Discussion in 'Self-Publishing' started by A.P. Kadmus, Jan 22, 2017.

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  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Sorry, just to clarify - the whole project will be in the black, or just the expenses and income for the individual month?

    Regardless, though I think you have the right attitude for someone self-publishing their first novel. Do it for the experience and the fun and the learning, not for the money. I'm all for self-publishing first novels as long as that's the expectation.

    It's when people think they're going to be making money off the project, when they "invest" money they clearly can't afford to lose, that I get worried for them!
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You're speaking with a lot of authority for someone who I don't think has pursued either path. Maybe I'm wrong - have you successfully self-published something? And are you willing to be as transparent about your definition of "success" as @Lew has been? If you've "chased" agents and publishers, can you explain why you're confident that it was the process, not your manuscript, that led to the shit load of rejections?

    If so, then I think you're in a position to offer some real insights into the process, at least as it worked for you. I'd be interested in hearing your experiences. But without that, you're just repeating hype that's already been repeated a hell of a lot of times, and that's in direct contradiction to the experiences of other posters on this thread who've actually had personal experience with a variety of types of publishing.
     
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  3. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Did you yell at him to stop going to conferences and FINISH THE DAMN BOOK?!? ;)

    (I used to have that impulse when I saw him posting about all his extra events. But he's broken my spirit, now. I no longer care what happens to the people of Westeros, and I'm sure I can get the general gist of things by reading what people post about the end of the TV series)
     
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  4. rincewind31

    rincewind31 Active Member

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    Don't be disheartened. I did the same as you and rushed to self publish. I think most people do with their first book. In the first month I sold about two dozen copies. I then fixed all the errors I'd found after publishing, and stuck on a quality professional cover rather than the crappy one I'd originally used and re-uploaded the files. Since then it's sold over 50k copies.

    Self publishing isn't for everyone but it can work. Whichever avenue anyone takes though you certainly need a hell of a lot of luck.
     
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  5. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Result. What sort of marketing did you do for that ?
     
  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    This is a great story. Was your book fiction or non-fiction? To what do you attribute your success?

    ETA: Oh, sorry, I remember your book now! (and it's in your sig line... duh!) Most of your sales still seem to be in the UK? That's interesting. From my own reading, I do feel like there was a really "British" feel to the writing... does that sound consistent with what you've heard from other readers?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  7. rincewind31

    rincewind31 Active Member

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    Apart from thew occasional post to a few local groups i'm a member of, pretty much zero marketing.

    Comedy fiction, and I just think it got caught on the crest of a wave. Sales put it on the also bought lists next to more well known authors, and from there it just snowballed. Plus of course it's a bloody funny book with an eyecatching cover ;)
     
  8. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You played with price a bit, right? Or at least contemplated doing so. Did you find a sweet spot?
     
  9. rincewind31

    rincewind31 Active Member

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    Yep, it's very British which is the only reason I can think as to why it's fared so poorly in the US. Same with the second book.

    And I just kept the price at 1.99 in the end :)
     
  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I shall download that when I get home - looks good

    Have you looked at any other markets ? I was reading a thing the other day about the Indian market for English language books, apparently there are more English speakers in India than there are in any other country apart from the US and the market for protypically English books like yours is quite strong though prices for ebooks are low, so its a volume game to make a decent income
     
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    My only publishing success so far is from magazines (not writing magazines - articles in subject magazines), however I'm repeating info from people who have had significant self pub success - Joanna Penn, Jeff Goins, Kristine Katherine Rausch etc, I wouldn't describe it as hype.

    Also with respect its been a long time since you were a new author and the publishing landscape has changed significantly in that time, so your experience of what its like to be unpublished and seeking your first deal now rather than ten, even five years ago is also limited to repeating information from others. Do you actually have any evidence that a new author with a good manuscript can reliably get a deal with a good advance today ?

    Come to that even many established authors are moving to self pub - Michael Ridpath is one such example ... do you think that it's the quality of his manuscripts that have caused him to step away from the traditional model ?

    As to my definition of success I believe I already said that I am looking to make a supplementary income from my writing whilst retaining creative control. I will be happy to make 5-10k per annum, and yes I understand that that won't happen easily, or off just one book. I would however define proper success in self publishing as being of the sort that someone like Joanna Penn has achieved 21 books in 8 years and a 6 figure income.

    Also lastly I have a lot of respect for your writing success in the romance genre ... however this does not make you the definitive expert on publishing in every genre, or in every facet of the writing process, and I will continue to disagree where I think you're wrong (based on information from others or from my own experience depending what we're talking about), and stamping your foot and saying "but I'm published" will not change that
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  12. The Piper

    The Piper Contributor Contributor

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    Hi everyone,

    I’d like to clarify something; the idea behind my original comment was to throw in a little about my own personal experience, and I didn’t mean to suggest, as it seems may have come across, that my opinion was more worthwhile than anyone else’s. I understand that self-publishing is a different experience for everyone and did not mean to say “it’s not the way to go” but rather to advise “it’s not the way to go if you rush it”.

    Self-publishing, for me, was a mistake. @big soft moose you're absolutely right - something written by a sixteen year old on a phone would never be near ready for publishing. Never. Now, a year and a series of half-abandoned projects later (and one finished book that I’ve never dared even send to a publisher for fear of more rejection - inevitable, but I’ll hold off for as long as I can) I understand that I rushed into something silly and essentially put something unfinished to the public. This is what I was trying to say.

    By all means, go for self-publishing. But all I was saying was this: be very careful and do what feels right for the long run. I’m naive, I was barely out of high school, and with the pressures of college and work and a household full of anger that forced me outside most days, the only way I could write was on my phone, on the bus. Every single day.

    This is the biggest message I’d like to give: focus on the writing. Whenever I had spare time, I wrote. I still do. Not a day goes by when I don’t write something. Hopefully I’m a little better now than before, and hopefully I wouldn’t find myself in the same situation again.

    Apologies for the tangent, hopefully I’ve cleared up my comments a little - if not I’ve certainly made things worse. Either way, do whatever feels right for you, but make sure it is the right thing.
     
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  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Unless I missed something, the explosion in this thread was not in any way your fault.
     
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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Yeah that, none of whats happened here was your fault Piper.... Bay and I really should just put each other on ignore, and/or agree a truce (the long running cross thread spat, which has bubbled between us ever since that thing with pinky doesn't bring me any pleasure, and I doubt it does you either @BayView , what say we just kick this ball of wax into the long grass and start over ? and yeah I know I've substantially mangled that metaphor)

    That aside Self vs Trad is one of those topics like Mac vs Windows which always becomes contentious as people take entrenched positions on both sides. EOTD there's merit to both positions, and the key thing whatever anyone picks is to do it properly and do your research before hand.

    ETA per what i was saying about Joanna Penn - this is her career timeline https://www.thecreativepenn.com/timeline/ she has a great quote that "self publishing [and associated work] isn't a get rich quick scheme but can be a get rich slowly scheme if you work at it
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  15. K McIntyre

    K McIntyre Active Member

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    Nah - I went for the polite approach. I won't yell at him to finish his book as long as he doesn't yell at me to do the same.
     
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  16. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    I think if I had two or three agents fighting over me, I would be in hog-heaven. Obviously, I would then go the traditional route, as publication success is almost assured, and with the marketing arm of a publisher behind you, getting readership will be far easier.

    The trick is getting two or three agents fighting over you. Let me know how that works out.
     
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  17. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    BTW, @rincewind31, very respectable rankings on Amazon.UK, the best I have seen from a self-published author!
     
  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I think the op has gone - he hasnt been seen since this thread https://www.writingforums.org/threads/all-of-the-publishing-mediums-and-sites.150374/ nearly 18 month ago where he decided to make cryptic threats to Bayview for no apparent reason and I think copped a temporary ban


    We established previously in this thread that he was full of crap "asking theoretical questions" anyway
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  19. MarcT

    MarcT Active Member

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    I self published my first book in 2007 and actually paid real money over to the publishers, who are now defunct (I don't bear any responsibility for that). This was all done impetuously and in ignorance.
    In hindsight, it was a mistake and no agent worth their salt would have signed that book anyway. But I may re-edit it and put it back on Amazon, if I have the time.
    The reason I'm quoting @big soft moose, is because the publishing landscape has indeed changed, although I don't know the time-scale they are referring to. It seems to me that the stigma of self publishing is not what it used to be by a long shot and the time line between signing up with an agent and actually seeing your book in the shops, is still a very long time. Are we impatient, or do we deserve better than the trad route?
    I worked very hard to get my latest work accepted by around 50 agents and tailored my submissions accordingly. However, following the rejections, the entire exercise felt like throwing s**t at the walls and hoping that some of it might stick.
    I found it to be demoralising, not through any bitterness on my part after the fact, but because deep down, I wasn't expecting any acceptance, if that makes sense.
    However, since then, I've tightened everything up, had the book professionally edited (at no cost), re-worked much of the plot, changed the tag line and the blurb, and the only financial layout so far is for the book cover and a blog hosting.
    On this occasion, I'm going with KDP and hope to publish in February, once the book cover has been finalised and that I'm as satisfied as I ever can be with the manuscript.
    It may sound like a cliché, but self publishing does seem a more democratic way to publish, but that isn't to say that we don't need to polish the work any less.
    Of course, I'm only speculating at the moment, since it's not yet published, but control over your own work also seems like an important incentive by not going the traditional route.
    The luxury of being able to choose between literary agents is not something many of us will enjoy, so perhaps more realistic goals are easier to meet.
     
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  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think a few people have been doing some self-publishing since this thread was last active - it'd be great if they could share their sales number (or approximations) and discuss whether they're still as enthusiastic about self-publishing as they were.

    @Lew , am I right that you're looking for an agent for your next book? Can you outline the reasons behind that decision?

    @big soft moose, I get you confused with another poster, but I think you've got some books out? Have you been pleased with sales?

    For me? I'm planning to self-publish the book I'm working on right now, but I certainly plan to keep working with publishers at least some of the time. The book I'm currently writing seems like a good candidate for self-publishing because it's a sequel to a book that I previously sold to a publisher, but self-published (second edition) after the publisher closed down. The first book has enough positive ratings that I'm hopeful it might qualify for a BookBub promo, and if I can make that happen it'd be good to have the sequel waiting for any interested readers.

    In my experience, self-publishing provides more opportunities for that sort of promotion.

    But I'm still very glad I started publishing with publishers, both as a way to build an audience and as a way to ensure that my writing was reasonably sell-able.

    Anyone else have concrete experiences to share?
     
  21. hyacinthe

    hyacinthe Banned

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    I am represented by an agent and my first contract is with a big five publishing house. As a result of having an agent I've also secured a translation deal and an audiobook deal. There is no way self publishing could have replicated the success of my first novel.

    self pub might be something I do in the future, but for the moment I'm not concerned with it.
     
  22. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Unless I've picked you up wrongly, that wasn't so much 'self-publication' as 'vanity press' publication. (I don't mean you are vain, by the way. :) It's just that 'vanity press' is a term often applied to 'publishers' who demand money from the authors before agreeing to publish and promote the books. These so-called publishers make their money from authors, not from selling the author's books—although they'll happily take a cut of sales as well, if sales magically appear. Apparently vanity publishers' record of promotion is dismal.)

    When I think 'self-publication' I think of something like what @Lew and his wife Karen @K McIntyre have done. They have paid out money to somebody to design the front covers (their choice) but they uploaded their novels to Amazon via CreateSpace, which doesn't cost anything to use. I believe CreateSpace also provide print-on-demand, meaning the cost of printing out a novel is borne by the buyer, not the author. There are other companies, like Lulu, that work this way as well. (I'm not up to date on all of these companies and their policies, and I believe CreateSpace is in the process of changing some of their approach, but in general, if a company demands money up front, they're vanity publishers. This situation may evolve, as the online industry evolves, but at the moment I would be very wary of them.)
     
  23. Surtsey

    Surtsey Banned

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    This maybe a slight tangent but there is a difference between self-published and trad published books. There are 'art' writers and 'commercial' writers. Art and self-publishing allows the publication of material the people don't want hear. By definition commercial writing requires the production of stories the public do want hear. A parallel result can be seen in news: Fox will tell their customers what they want to hear. MSNBC will cater to their customers.

    Imagine, 30 years ago you wrote a Cinderella story where at the end Cinderella left prince at the alter stating: "I like you but your sister, the princess is way hotter. Could I get her number?"

    No way would that book be published 30 years ago. So I think self-publishing has its place and it shouldn't be dismissed because of the quality of the work.

    I write stories because I've stories to tell. It's nice when people appreciate them. I wouldn't change a story to gain sales.
     
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  24. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    How strange to read my own response from almost exactly a year ago (last post was written 22nd Jan 2017 and it's the 20th today in 2018) because I've changed my mind about almost everything I've written! Weird too to see what I thought was recent new insight over Christmas is actually ideas I've had from a whole year ago... Has that happened to anyone else!?

    Right now I'm on the fence between trade and self-publishing. I stand by what I said about many writers having bad reasons for going self-pubbed (such as the lack of belief in one's book), but if I went self-publishing, I'd do the networking. While I'm in the editing stage, I've hopped onto Twitter and started the networking already (200 followers in 2 weeks, not too bad. I calculated that'd give me like, 5200 followers in a year. Well, I wouldn't mind if it grew faster than that. I'm trying a new technique that I've seen other writers do) I've registered a domain and planning on populating it with book reviews and I'm gonna research into ARCs - already know of two platforms but not actively done anything about it yet. I'm beta-reading a trade-published author's book right now in the hopes of networking. I've got some Photoshop tutorials saved on my bookmarks and I plan to teach myself. I've always been an artist anyway so the only skill I lack to make my own covers is the technical skill of knowing how to use Photoshop - could potentially save me hundreds.

    I want a career in this and I don't mind whether it's through trade or self-publishing. Currently also working on a query and synopsis in case I do go the trade route. Just thought I better build the network now because those things don't grow overnight and it can't hurt.

    So, let's see, eh?

    ETA: if there's one thing it's gonna be the maths that's gonna kill me. I originally got a growth of 520 followers by end of the year if I keep up my rate of 100 by week. Like what? :rofl::bigoops:
     
  25. MarcT

    MarcT Active Member

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    It was indeed vanity press, as it was once called.
    Once bitten, etc
     
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