IF, for some reason, we thought it was a good idea to base a discussion of book genres on dictionary definitions rather than industry understandings of what the words mean, THEN, surely, we should at least acknowledge the COMPLETE dictionary definitions, rather than bowdlerizing to create evidence more favourable to our arguments? For example, instead of taking the SECOND definition from OxfordDictionaries.com for romance and saying that it's defined as "a quality or feeling of mystery, excitement, and remoteness from everyday life," we should probably take a look at the FIRST definition, which is: 1) A feeling of excitement and mystery associated with love. --1.1 Love, especially when sentimental or idealized --1.2 A love affair, especially one that is not very serious or long-lasting --1.3 A book or film dealing with love in a sentimental or idealized way --1.4 A genre of fiction dealing with love in a sentimental or idealized way And then instead of taking ONLY "a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious" from Merriam-Webster, we should probably look at the FULL first entry, which is: 1a(1): a medieval tale based on legend, chivalric love and adventure, or the supernatural (2): a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious (3): a love story especially in the form of a novel b: a class of such literature (the next two definitions also come from MW, but they're the second and third meanings.) So, in summary - it's silly to use conventional dictionary definitions to define terms of art, but if you are going to use dictionary definitions, it's not appropriate to cherry pick the definitions you use, not if you're trying to prove someone else is using the word wrongly. It's cheating to say that and then exclude the definitions that match the way the other person uses the word. I won't even get into the oddness of using a definition of "speculate" in order to fully understand the meaning of "speculative fiction," except to say: that's not how words work.
1234567890 has something of a dislike for the fantasy genre, and mistakes his/her opinion for objective fact. Engaging them will probably be a waste of time, based on previous form.
I'm sensing some butthurt here. Fantasy is easier to write because plot points have no basis in fact. I've just re-read the opening of my latest novel. She's considering the validity of "Murphy's Law" (a semi-real thing). Later, she explains why she refers to masturbation as 'Piggly Wiggly time." I'm confident that you are not smart enough to connect the dots but if "readers and writers" want to Lord it over us minions . . . You write fantasy because any bullshit you write can; t be challenged. You're just a kid. Your Barbie and Ken Dolls have the powers you have bestowed on them. Grow up.
I've reported this post, but I'm not sure any mods are currently on-line. Until they arrive... chill out. This post is pointlessly aggressive and rude. You've been here for two days, and I know I've already personally reported you at least twice. There's no need to come charging in looking for trouble. Possibly you've been here before and have some old grudges? Barring that, I have no idea where the hostility is coming from.
Good writing is good writing. Period. A good writer is a good writer. Period. I am not a fan of the romance genre. But, some of the better writers, @BayView for example, on this forum are romance writers. So, I read their books to learn from them. Currently I'm in correspondence with a mystery/thriller writer. Even though I do not read that genre, I love her style, and I'm learning from her. Last, but not least, you're insulting a genre that includes the like of C.S. Lewis.
Wait . . . you're reporting me for disagreeing with you? I know the First Amendment does not apply to the world wide web or even private enterprises but seriously? I will state that I find the whole fantasy genre childish, tittle-telling to mommy when you can't support your argument supports my assertion.
:chill: Let's get the discussion back on track. Numbers and BayView, the floor is yours. The rest of you, contribute constructively and play nice. Threads tend to get closed if conversations go off-topic and bitchy.
An apology. I wish to, without reservation, declare that all fantasy writers are the best writers - ever. All fantasy plots are the best plots in the history of plots are the best ever. I apologise I if intimated that fantasy writers are not the best writers than human kind has ever produced in this realm or the next I strongly believe that fantasy is the only genre worth writing and the writing of such should never be subject to criticism.
Here's an idea, let's just ignore the disruptive posters and the obvious baiting. It's just depressing when one or two attention-craving posters can pull a thread off-topic. Report, block, and move on.
He's obviously a troll based on some other threads he is in, but he also could just be good at sarcasm. I mean if he was jumped on just for disagreeing he may have a point (I am not going to read the whole thread to find out so maybe it was the way he said it, like I said he is a troll in other threads).
I apologise. Whenever you think I am being a "troll" please let me know. I fully intend to become a part of the community by agreeing with everybody all of the time.
There's no fun in that. I have almost been banned for just using colorful metaphors that people didn't get. Sometimes they don't get sarcasm here but you have to admit you are making it quite clear you ARE trolling.
For the record. I would love to be a published author. You already are. So I'm sure you understand a lot more than I do that industry understandings of genre are certainly more important than dictionary ones. However, for purely intellectual discussions, like the one on this thread, I think we can afford to do things like delve into definitions. You're absolutely right that I cherry picked. I had actually considered just using the first definitions I found but then I decided that no matter what at best I would be arbitrarily picking definitions since we're not going to spend months here going through them all. So I picked a few because even if they aren't the only definitions, they are still definitions. Just because the first definition of romance might refer to love, that doesn't mean romance only means that. A knife is used to kill and to cook. A romance can refer to love or to some idealized fantasy. Ultimately when evaluating these sorts of differences each person will have to evaluate for themselves which definitions are appropriate. A knife that is used to cook has more in common with a spoon than it does with a knife that is designed to kill. This is why I decided to pick concrete examples of books, so that we can see that some books in some industry defined genres might have more in common with some books in other industry defines genres.
But you'd miss Tom Bombadil! If you fly, you just get clouds, and stewardesses looking after your welfare, and bringing you stuff. Oh, wait....
But if we're talking about book publishing, doesn't it make more sense to use the terms as they're used in book publishing? Like, if I were working in a kitchen and someone mentioned a knife and for some reason I didn't know what one was, I'd look in the dictionary and gravitate toward the definition that made sense given the context of the word's use. Right? In terms of "each person will have to evaluate for themselves which definitions are appropriate"? I think that would make sense if you hadn't cut and pasted certain definitions into your post. When you did that, especially given that you didn't acknowledge any other definitions, I think you actually got in the way of people evaluating definitions for themselves. The main point, really, is that Fantasy and Romance and Speculative Fiction already have pretty well-understood definitions within the industry. If we want to understand them in that context, we should check the industry use, not the etymology.
