In Favor of the Mary Sue

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by John Calligan, Mar 6, 2019.

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  1. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Contributor

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    Maybe that's the difference, then. I don't read comics, so all I know of him is from the cartoons.
     
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  2. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Mainstream superheroes have been written by so many authors over the course of their lifespans, that there's bound to be some Mary Sue moments or story arcs for most of them. At least that's how I see things.

    Does that mean those characters are fundamentally Mary Sues? I don't think so. So long as they have plenty of stories where they don't come off as Sues.
    Does that matter, though? Yes Superman is the best DC hero at punching people, but Batman is the world's greatest detective. The Flash is the world's fastest man. Martian Manhunter is the Justice League's go to mentalist. Zatanna and Doctor Fate have magical superiority/authority. Wonder Woman has the Lasso of Truth, as well as the resources of Themyscira. Green Lantern has the most creative power set. Cyborg is virtually a god of technology. I think you get the point. Surely it's okay for someone to be the best at punching villains?
    He's not as fast as the Flash, but even if he was, so what? Green Lantern is more powerful than Batman in nearly every way, that doesn't mean GL is overpowered or a Mary Sue. Wonder Woman is more powerful than Catwoman in every way, that doesn't mean Wonder Woman is overpowered or a Mary Sue. If you've ever read Justice League comics, you'd know Flash pulls his weight in every adventure he's involved in.
    If you read the comics, you'll discover that Superman often needs his super friends (pun intended). And he's been saved by them more than a few times.
     
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  3. Azuresun

    Azuresun Senior Member

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    I wouldn't say power level alone makes a Mary Sue, and Superman often escapes it due to the writers paying attention to those parts of his personality that go beyond "hitting stuff". There's the burden of responsibility that comes with being the world's most iconic superhero, and the target it paints on him (and those close to him). There's the tension, even with his allies, that comes with the difference in power level and the balance between being alienated from others due to what he is, vs his humility and his simple wish to use his powers to help people.

    But that's not to say he doesn't drain tension from stories--that was my main gripe with Justice League.

    Two of my favourite Superman moments have nothing to do with his power level:

    One was in the Hitman series, when he's talking with the titular character about how he saved a group of people--but there was one he couldn't save, and those are the ones that weigh on his mind. A weaker hero could say they did the best they could, but he's expected to be perfect every time.

    The other was Reign of the Supermen, in which he doesn't directly feature at all (he's been killed by Doomsday, he got better later), when the world is trying to adjust to no longer having their number 1 superhero, and four successors rise to fill the gap. The clever bit is how each of the successors embodies a different aspect of Superman. Steel is the heroic spirit, the guy who does the best he can because it's the right thing to do, with power level being irrelevant. The Last Son is the inhuman side, the alien that passes judgement on mankind over an unbridgable gap. The Cyborg is the icon, the tireless public servant with little behind the mask. Superboy is the power fantasy, enjoying how cool it is to be a big league superhero.

    The other thing that springs to mind is One Punch Man, and I think this video does a good job of explaining how even when the concept of "overpowered hero" is taken to its absolute limit for comedy purposes, the character can still be three-dimensional and relatable.

    [youtube]
     
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  4. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    Not the original Dragonball series necessarily, but all of the garbage that came after, absolutely. It's Power Level 9000 stupidity.
     
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  5. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    If it’s stupid, why is it so popular?

    (Probably because of all those great powering up scenes)

     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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  6. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Much the same can be said about Rey. She can lose (the first time she confronts Kylo, he captures her with ease; her getting thrashed by Snoke has already been mentioned, and shortly after this a struggle of Force powers between her and Kylo ends in a draw). She has flaws/weaknesses (just look at her complete misunderstanding of the Force earn her scorn from Luke; Rey also has difficulty letting go). And she doesn't defeat Snoke. Kylo does.
     
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  7. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    Barney the dinosaur and Three's Company were also popular.
     
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  8. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I’ve never seen Threes Company, but it’s 7.5 of 10 on IMDB. Here is a clip:



    Sorry, but this shit is comedy gold.
     
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  9. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    But she only gets captured by Kylo so that the story can progress and continue to revolve around her. She only gets thrashed by Snoke so that the audience can feel fear over her presumed helplessness. They aren't consequences of her actions--they're not the result of some mistake she made, and now has to deal with--they're situations that the writers of the story connive her into so that she can demonstrate her prowess when she inevitably escapes, no?

    Maybe the term Mary Sue should start applying to the author rather than the character. It's not Rey's fault that she gets captured just so she can escape and prove how strong and great and powerful she is--it's the writers. It's the consequence of a team of people writing with an agenda, rather than to tell a story. They already know what they want--they want Rey to be a strong, powerful, good role model that people can look up to. But rather than having her become that, she already is that, and the story is crafted to keep her in that role, rather than her, as a character, navigating through the story world in order to achieve that goal.

    It's the difference between a Dungeons and Dragons GM using the PC's selfishly to get his story to turn out the way he wants it, or the GM allowing the players to act according to their character, and explore the avenues they want to explore regardless of outcome.
     
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  10. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    This forum needs to get a D&D campaign going. :superagree:
     
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  11. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    No. They're absolutely consequences of her actions. Rey flees into the woods after the visions triggered by touching the lightsaber, a "rejection of the call" that directly leads to her capture. Which is a contributing factor in Han's death.

    Likewise, getting thrashed by Snoke is a direct result of 1) her surrendering in an attempt to redeem Kylo, 2) trying to fight someone vastly more powerful than she is.

    Both of these are the result of questionable choices she now has to deal with.

    But if you really want to make this argument, I'll point out that Luke is the same. His losses are only so the story can progress.
     
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  12. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    Luke losses very little - a hand and his idealism. His actions never permanently hurt his friends and his faith that he can rehabilitate his father as a weapon against the Emperor is validated.
     
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  13. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Exactly my point. If we're going to call Rey a Sue for nebulous "not enough consequences" reasons, Luke absolutely deserves to be called one too.
     
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  14. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    The difference is that Luke is a phenomenally successful and purpose-driven warrior, and Rey is just screwing around, trying to make up her mind what she "feels" in two films that have been little more than a comedy of errors.


    But I'm really not buying the idea that any character in original fiction is a "Sue".
     
  15. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Comparing a complete work to an unfinished one isn't a very fair comparison. As I recall, Luke was pretty indecisive in the first two movies too.

    There are Sues in original fiction, but they're far rarer than Internet discussions would have us believe. And they almost never occur in prominent works. If you want to find them, sifting through poorly rated Kindle books with awful covers is a good place to start.
     
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  16. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    Look at the audience it's intended for. Same reason Spongebob is popular. Popularity doesn't mean good.
     
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  17. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    That's what I'm getting at with this thread. I'm not so sure about that.
     
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  18. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    Except Luke doesn't. Luke fought for his success. He trained with Yoda and still lost to Vader. He didn't magically know how to use a lightsaber the first time he saw one, in fact, when Ben handed him one, he looked in the business end like an idiot. He wasn't a natural born Force user like Rey was. He wasn't a natural born fighter. The Sandpeople kicked his ass. He made tons of mistakes and paid the price for them. Every success he had came at the cost of a ton of hard work. Rey had none of that. In fact, in TLJ. they set it up to mirror Luke's journey. Luke went to Ben and then Yoda as his mentors, who trained him in the ways of the Force. Rey went to Luke, who threw his lightsaber over his shoulder, and if you notice, Rey trained herself to be a Jedi. Because Mary Sues don't need no man to show them what to do. I heard that there was a span of 10 days between TFA and TLJ and in that time, Rey went from never having seen a lightsaber before to fighting the Vader-equivalent of the New Order to a standstill. Luke had the Skywalker lineage and a lot of training and he still had a rough go of it. Rey was just magic from day one.
     
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  19. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    I mean honestly, look at some of the things that are "popular". Twilight. Fifty Shades of Grey. Are those good?
     
  20. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Or you just accept a definition of Mary Sue that encompasses a very small portion of popularly accused characters.
     
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  21. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    I can't really think of much of any indecision on Luke's part. He's a one man killing machine who only shows trepidation at times before confrontations that are difficult. Otherwise he makes the vast majority of pivotal plot decisions throughout three films - almost universally in favor of decisive action.


    I don't know if Kindle garbage means anything happens in "original fiction", as that sets the bar pretty low. Point to any rule of fiction and I'll both violate and self publish it this afternoon. I was referring to traditional or successful publications that have been validated in some sense other than simply being written down.
     
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  22. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Yes. They are wildly popular because they give their target audiences an emotional experience, and they are not easily reproduced.
     
  23. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    He trained with Yoda for a couple weeks, max. He shouldn't have been able to do even as well as he did.

    Not a natural born force user, but he out fights some of the Empire's best pilots and uses the force to guide a missile onto an almost impossible targeting solution. After maybe a few hours of training. Oh, and he gets put in command of pilots with years more combat experience than him. Yeah, that's totally not Sue material.

    And yeah, he's not a natural born fighter, because he didn't have to be. Which makes it all the more jarring when he starts mowing down Stormtroopers. Meanwhile, Rey had to fight to survive her childhood. In that context, her skills aren't surprising. Neither is her figuring out how to use a lightsaber; it's not that different from her staff.

    Ah yes, the Vader equivalent who never finished his training. Kylo Ren is a fraction of a shadow of his grandfather and uncle. But the one time Rey defeats him, Kylo has a gaping wound on his side, a cut on his sword arm, and is barely able to tap into the Force because he's mentally unbalanced after killing his father. It's a miracle he's still standing, yet he's winning for most of the fight. Rey undoubtedly had to work for that victory,

    Because most accusations of Suedom, like most accusations of Nazism, are baseless. If somebody doesn't have any ideas in common with the Nazis, they're not one; if a character has any flaws that have an impact, if they ever lose or face stiff opposition, if they ever make the wrong decisions, that character isn't a Mary Sue.

    The character may still be a weak or poorly written character, but they're not a Sue.

    I was thinking of the first third or so of IV, and a few points during his training in V.

    Okay, but original fiction definitely encompasses Kindle garbage. I'd agree they're virtually absent in "validated" original fiction.
     
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  24. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Good grief man, must you make a political analogy? :blech: To make matters worse, you picked a poor one. Nazism has a clearly defined ideology and definition, whereas Mary Sue doesn't. So it's like we say in the South: that dog won't hunt.
    You're proving to be a slow learner... That's merely your accepted definition. As you know, other definitions exist - all of which I prefer to yours, fyi. For example:

    "In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."

    Or

    "If a character's charm/skills/strength/plot armor make the story lose drama/engagement/suspension of disbelief, then the character is a Mary Sue."
     
  25. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    This is just a repetition of the farm boy trope that people erroneously apply to Luke. He isn't a bumpkin, but an accomplished pilot and armed young adult trusted by his adopted parents to cruise the dangerous badlands alone. He is qualified to attend a prestigious military academy and one of his Tatooine contemporaries has already become a squad leader among the Rebel space force. He reacts with no fear to the murderers in the cantina, speaking with the confidence of someone who has already proved himself in a harsh and unforgiving world. When he tells Han he could fly his own freighter, he isn't just boasting.

    What we see from there is a demonstration of Luke's previous practiced skills in marksmanship, grapple hook use, complex computer systems, piloting and even some combat expressed as righteousness in a chosen cause.

    He definitely picks up a few aspects of Force use quickly, mainly because he is something of a natural and has simply never been aware of those possibilities. But we don't see what appears to be lengthy period of self training between IV and Hoth where he presumably found a manual that guided his training enough to make his time with Yoda 'finishing school'. And he has another period like this between Empire and RotJ, where he refines more skills, completes a tricky lightsaber build and adopts new dress and attitude - Luke shows up at Jabba's a very different person than at the end of Empire.

    The fact that Rey self-teaches even faster just underlines the fact that Luke was primed to learn to use the Force, and took to it once he became aware of it.


    So Luke wasn't some goofball farmboy. He was a hardened frontiersman that quickly adapted to a new weapon system to continue to develop the skills he already had. In film, he is more like Die Hard's John McLain - a man with an honestly earned set of skills who steps up to a higher level of functioning by need and desire. Both are refreshing in a see of waffling self-doubters so many heroes are supposed to now be in fiction.


    I think we have been somewhat programmed to look for the Joseph Campbell paradigm, and sometimes it isn't there, like in Star Wars and LotR.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019

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