Avoiding the rehashed themes/plots/mechanics of Fantasy

Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by MoonieChild, Mar 12, 2019.

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  1. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    The thing that annoys me most about fantasy (though I'll admit, it occurs more in poorly-written, clearly self-published fantasy) is the helpless boy-crazy female characters. The ones who are thrown into (or born into) this glorious world of magic and adventure and their primary concern is "Ooh, that guy is SO HOT."
    Or the girl who just can't bear living without her man. (Looking at you, Bella Swan).
    Or the one who has powers but can't possibly use them properly until the hot boy helps her.
    Or the one who is slowly falling for the bad guy of the story, the guy who is CLEARLY a douche but is completely rehabilitated by the girl's love.

    You can have magic and powers and elves and dwarves and good-and-evil struggles and STILL have a good love story in it....just please don't make the girl a flipping idiot about it.
     
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  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    In a lot of romances, both the male and female characters are this way. In Twilight, it's not just Bella. Edward is just as bad. That trope goes back to at least Romeo and Juliet.
     
  3. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    Hence why I'm not particularly fond of the romance genre.
     
  4. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    The better romances don't have the desperate-for-my-man protagonists you dislike.
    Unfortunately, Sturgeon's Law ("90% of everything is crap.") applies to that genre as much as any other.
    And I've seen far worse in supposed "SciFi." Including one book where a coyote-wolf-human genetic hybrid was literally in heat for one specific man for 90% of the book. And I mean literally.
     
  5. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I believe it is possible to write a good one having that sort of desperation in it. I like Romeo and Juliet, for example, and they're desperate to the point of both ending up dead. In clumsy hands, it's a terrible trope, but I think it can be done well and is probably going to be limited to younger protagonists.
     
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  6. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I just beta-read an absolutely cracking fantasy novel written by one of our forum members. It's extremely original, with excellent characters, a dilemma I can believe in, fantastical beings that are not overdone tropes, magic that isn't same old same old, etc. It certainly can be done.

    I've always wondered why fantasy (especially 'medieval' fantasy)—a genre in which just about anything goes—has become so predictable? Predictable events, characters, dilemmas, etc.

    Instead of blaming Tolkien, why not just write something different?
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  7. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    I generally agree with you, except for about Romeo and Juliet.
    It has romance, but I don't think it's in the romance genre: it doesn't have the required elements.
    It's a tragedy about children caught up in a cold war.
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yes, it is certainly a tragedy and not a romance. But it has a romantic element that fits within the desperate, can't live with you approach of some romances. I think they can work with younger protagonists because they capture that desperation many people feel the first time they fall deeply for someone in their teens. If the protagonists were 50 years old, I'd have a harder time buying it.

    I don't have a problem with Twilight, however. Despite it not being a book I really cared for, it was a significant point in my daughter's life as a reader, so hats off to Stephanie Meyer.
     
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  9. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I’m not blaming anyone. I like regular fantasy the way it is. ;)
     
  10. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    A romance is whatever stirs romantic feelings in the reader, regardless of the form the story takes. R&J is a tragedy, and most modern film romances are comedies, but they're both romances.
     
  11. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    Absolutely. That's why I'm not a fan of letting 30+ year old thespians play the leads in R&J.
     
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  12. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    For simplicity, I tend to associate a work with its dominant theme. R&J and Hamlet are both tragedies, though they both have romantic elements. Outlander is a romance, though it has fantasy elements. Alien is SF though it has horror elements (some may argue about this and say it is a horror movie with SF elements, but that's not how I see it).
     
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  13. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    And as you and I both understand, to claim everything with any romance in it falls into the romance genre makes the concept of genre meaningless.
     
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  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'm tired of characters being defined by their race. Evil Orcs, wise Elves, etc. I've read a few books that allow for a full range of character types within different fantasy species, and I'd like to read more.
     
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  15. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    Sure, that is useful for shelving the item, but it ignores that someone seeking a romance may choose R&J or When Harry Met Sally despite their larger categorization. R&J may be other things, but it is certainly a romance as well.

    Genres aren't explicit, which is why we use terms like rom-com. But in this thread we are talking about Fantasies that are also romances, which seems like the same situation as a tragedy that is also a romance. Unless this thread isn't about Fantasy, why are you making this point?
     
  16. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    R&J isn't a romance according to the definition of the genre. It may or may not be romantic, but it's not a romance according to the definition used in publishing today.
     
  17. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    And I don't know what that has to do with a discussion of romance within the genre of Fantasy.
     
  18. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Probably nothing, until you made post #60, above, characterizing R&J as a "romance."
     
  19. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    Right. After you mentioned it as a romance while discussing Twilight as a romance.
    Neither of us said that makes them both primarily from the Romance genre.
     
  20. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    OT: I am minded by this conversation of how humbling it is to consider the scope, depth, and richness of Shakespear's work. Tragedy, comedy, romance, fantasy: he wrote it all, and well.
    It's hard to imagine what he could have accomplished if he'd had access to the writing tools we modern authors do.
     
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  21. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    I was browsing Wikiquotes, found this excerpt from page 89 of C.S. Lewis' review of LOTR in On Stories and Other Essays on Literature, and felt it might have some relevance here:

    'But why,' (some ask), 'why, if you have a serious comment to make on the real life of men, must you do it by talking about a phantasmagoric never-never land of your own?' Because, I take it, one of the main things the author wants to say is that the real life of men is of that mythical and heroic quality. One can see the principle at work in his characterization. Much that in a realistic work would be done by 'character delineation' is here done simply by making the character an elf, a dwarf, or a hobbit. The imagined beings have their insides on the outside; they are visible souls. And Man as a whole, Man pitted against the universe, have we seen him at all till we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?
     
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  22. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    It seems so wrong, but feels so right.

    I once wrote a werewolf romance erotica where knotting was a plot point, so I can't say anything there.
     
  23. Bolu Kai

    Bolu Kai Member

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    A lot of this reminds thread reminds of a book that I think is really interesting when it comes to perspective on writing, especially on tropes and cliche. The book is The Story Grid by Shawn Coyne. When we think of tropes or cliches we think of things that are overdone and that aren't original. After reading this book, I look at tropes/cliches in a different light. Shawn describes two things in his book: obligatory scenes and convetions. Obligatory scenes as “must-have scenes for paying off readers’ expectations as set up by the conventions of the genre.” If you leave out an obligatory scene, you’ll have a story that doesn’t work." Shawn describes conventions as "elements in the Story that must be there or the reader will be confused, unsettled, or bored. Without them your story won’t work. Conventions, unlike obligatory scenes, are specific requirements for a story’s characters and/or methods of advancing plot. They can be turning points and do not have to be used in any certain order." Use the link below to see examples of obligatory scenes and conventions of the action genre.

    This is exactly what Coyne is talking about when he says "paying off readers' expectations." Publishers want books that will sell and readers are expecting books with certain things in them. Lets face it, we all do no matter the medium. When you're favorite series is over, what do you do? You wish it wasn't over because it was too good to end. All those tolkienist copies are the answer to that wish. Plus, it's always easier to sell what has already been done because publishers, studios, or whoever can spend less on marketing and worry less about buy-in. Why do you think so many superhero movies exist. Easy sell. It's hard to sell people on something new because they have to learn something all over again; people hate change.

    I think what will help you look at stories differently is thinking the subgenres that are already born and being born. Look at Conan the Barbarian (sword and sorcery) or Another Fine Myth (comic fantasy). Some of these stories are totally different from Lord of the Rings (epic high fantasy) and some of those subgenres might share similarities. Maybe you have trouble getting over these tropes and cliches because you need to widen your view and read some different genres? Not too mention, who cares if you overuse orcs, elves, and ents. We overuse humans in everything; it's like me arguing there should be less toys in Toy Story. It's about what's on the inside of your characters that makes them unique. The outside just grabs your initial interest. And of course, the physical appearance can help define that inside, but the outside appearance can only get you so far.

    REFERENCE: https://storygrid.com/secrets-of-the-love-genre/ --> pick a love story and see how many different stories use these obligatory scenes and conventions.

    When I think of tropes and cliches, think of overused situations. For instance, in a romance story, two lovers have to meet at some point. There has to be a meet up of some kind even if that meet up is more of discovery than anything; viewes/readers expect a meet-up. That's the situation and also the obligatory scene that Shawn Coyne refers to in his book. Now, the details we choose to descibe this siutation is what turns that situation into a cliche. The cliche would be that the lovers meet through an event: the man catches the woman from falling and hurting her self or the man buys the woman a drink at the bar. Oh, Lord. Stop it now. And to your post's point, it's really the same thing with tropes. You can use the evil orcs because, lets face it. Orcs are freaking awesome and they look demonic af thanks to the visuals of the Lord of the Rings. And orcs are always going to look evil because otherwise they aren't orcs. Just like a horse is always a horse. However, orcs are real people in stories and real people are intersectional. Intersectionalism "represents an analytic framework that attempts to identify how interlocking systems of power impact those who are most marginalized in society.[1] Intersectionality considers that various forms of social stratification, such as class, race, sexual orientation, age, religion, creed, disability and gender, do not exist separately from each other but are woven together." (Wikipedia) Of course, I'm using this term more generally. Maybe your orcs are evil like most people EXPECT. However, their evil nature is legitimized by things such as religion or because their actions are looked at as evil by another race of creatures who are actually evil. You don't need to make your characters or races so flat; add some depth, make them rounder.

    As far as good vs evil goes, there will always be good and evil. Maybe think of it as not good and evil but as opinion vs opinion? good and evil is an easy trope to stick to because it provides conflict. Stories are nothing without conflict. I'm sure democrats would argue that republicans are evil and I'm sure republicans would aregue the same about the democrats. Aren't their politcal views just two separate collective opinions? Characters and races aren't just good and evil; they are a spectrum of all sorts of attributes, belief systems, motivations, and more. People do evil and good things for specific reasons that are not always self-evident.
     
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  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Except he didn't. I can sort of see where your misunderstanding came from, but if you trace back up I think you'll see he didn't. He referred to romance, tropes, and R&J in the same post, but he didn't call R&J a romance.
     
  25. Fallow

    Fallow Banned

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    If this isn't a statement using Twilight as an example of 'romances', then I don't know how to read.

    I don't take this as evidence that Twilight ought to be shelved with Romance genre novels, but it certain implies, and I would agree, that it is romantic literature. I have a hard time imagining Twilight not thought of as "romantic".
     

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