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  1. King Rangvald X1111

    King Rangvald X1111 New Member

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    Novel How Do You Plan Longer Works?

    Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by King Rangvald X1111, Jun 15, 2019.

    So, I have been enjoying a book on writing that came out recently, which included a section on how that author plans out novels. I found this intriguing, not because I though his process would work for me, we have different starting points for our stories, but because he analyzed how he came to this method, and why he felt his writing before using it didn't work.

    As I, myself, have had numerous longer projects fizzle out or feel disjointed and messy, this prompted me to analyze why I felt my writing wasn't working, and I realized that it is because I was being unstructured; I didn't really plan much out before hand, and just jumped into the first chapter with a vague idea of where I wanted to go with the plot and characters. This often caused my writing to grind to a halt eventually, or for many of my characters and moments to feel both similar and flat, as I hadn't really defined them before throwing them into my story.

    Since this introspective into my writing process, I have been experimenting with various ways of planning my works and giving them shape before I start writing, trying to find a method that works for me. This got me wondering how other writers plan their longer works. As such, I have come here. How do you plan your novels? Do you start with one climactic scene and work backwards? Do you shape your characters and then analyze ways to exploit their weaknesses within the plot? Do you simply have a series of "moments" you like, and string them together to fill the rest in?

    Honestly, I'm curious (admittedly so I can experiment with some of these methods, but part of it is genuine curiosity).

    Thank you in advance.
     
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  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Plan? Plan?

    I don't plan, but for my current WIP (and I know I've said this in a few threads; apologies for being redundant) I've found a method that is making a novel coalesce. I say "so far" because I can't be sure it'll work again.

    - I write high-emotion scenes. I don't have to know what led to them or what they'll lead to. The goal is the high emotion. But high emotion pretty much inherently means conflict. And conflict pretty much inherently means plot. So, maybe, for example, Jane is blackmailing Joe into doing something. When I start the scene, I don't have to know the blackmail basis or the something. I might know it by time I finish writing the scene or I might not.

    - The scenes use the same characters and settings. They usually accept the reality of the other scenes. If I learned from the blackmail scene that Joe is terrified of his father's disapproval, that becomes an established fact--even if I don't know why he fears it.

    - More scenes, more scenes. I learn what the deal is about Joe's father. I learn what Jane wants. I get interested in Joe's father and there's a scene with him. Scenes, scenes, scenes.

    - Periodically, groups of scenes seem to fit together, as long as I correct some contradictions and, sadly, throw away scenes that are totally contradictory. (Maybe I had a great scene with Joe's mother. Then in another scene I realize that Joe reacts a certain way due to the death of his mother when he was three. Oops.)

    - The process continues. Things change. Dead scenes may be resurrected. (I really need that early-childhood parent death, but Joe's mother was the only really logical way to--oh, duh. Stepmother. Hey! I can have those other scenes back!)

    - The process continues. (Dangit dangit dangit. The stepmother is a tangle, too. An aunt can serve the same purpose. Lost those scenes again.)

    So, this is basically discovery writing, but I feel that it avoids one of the biggest traps of discovery writing: Lack of plot. By design, the emotion/conflict means that there's plot. It may be tangled incoherent plot to start with, but there's PLOT.
     
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  3. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak -- Just wondering what you mean by high emotion scene.

    I also don't really plan my writing out. I don't really write scene by scene. For me, it's more chapter by chapter. I also write in order. Sometimes when I get an idea I'll sit with it, let it sink in, and mentally play with it. But it's never the same when I actually write it. I prefer the freedom and enjoy the experience of writing without an outline. It's just what works for me. I also feel it can take just as long to write an outline as the story. I mean even with an outline, you're making that up as you go. I learned story structure my reading great books and a lot of them. And I truly believe reading great stories can teach you a lot more than any how to write books or advice.
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I initially talked about it here:

    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/chickenfreaks-progress-journal.133607/page-3#post-1565059

    though I'm not sure if that post is any clearer. :)

    I should really say "highly flavored" scene, because that was my original term.

    It's the sort of scene that, when you're watching a movie with friends, makes you say, "Shut up, this is my favorite part!" or, "Wait. What'd he say? Go back. Ooh!"

    If I grab Star Wars, as a movie everybody's seen, there are the obvious high emotion scenes that are also highly flavored scenes--the scene where Luke realizes that his aunt and uncle are in danger, for example.

    But there's also, "Aren't you a little short for a storm trooper?" and "She's rich."

    Those aren't high emotion, but they're fun and they show us the characters--and that's why highly flavored is a better term and I'm going to stick with it. The carbonite scene would lack flavor for me without "I love you/I know."

    On the other hand, the scene where Luke is practicing blindfolded with the light saber is, for me, all but flavorless. So is pretty much all of his training with Yoda

    So there's a lot of "I know it when I see it" about a highly flavored scene, for me.
     
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  5. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    I've got a 'longer project' and I need to plan which kinda stumps me because I'm a gardener at heart (which means I can't work with plans). So the solution to my problem was to 1) plan, 2) get to know my storyline on a visceral level, where I plan everything as it would have flown out while writing without a plan, 3) plan some more, and 4) write.

    Convoluted? Yes. Works? Yes. It works because I can play around with events during planning same as if I'd play around with them while writing, so my gut is happy and my storyline is coherent.
     
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  6. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    I always start by designing the main character(s) and their character arc(s). Are they going to change for the better or worse? Or maybe they'll be a catalyst for changing the world. What do they want and why?

    Antagonists usually come in during this phase, too.

    I do simple character sheets with traits listed under a few categories:

    Physical Attributes
    Personality
    Strengths and Skills
    Flaws, Weaknesses, and Limitations
    Goals and Motivations

    Once the absolute core of the cast is created, I brainstorm events that fit the major milestones of Three Act Structure. An inviting event that kicks things off. The First Plot Point, where the main character makes a choice that fully sucks them into the conflict, willingly or unwillingly. The First Pinch Point, where the MC gets their first real taste of the antagonistic force's might. The Midpoint, where the crux of the story is demonstrated. The Second Pinch Point, where the antagonistic force's might is demonstrated yet again. The Third Plot Point--preceded by an apparent victory--brings the MC to their lowest point. The Climax brings the conflict to a head, and the Resolution ties everything up.

    After brainstorming the big events, I come up with the material needed to link those together. That's basically just listing chapter after chapter, scene after scene, and typing what needs to happen in it in broad strokes.

    Then I just...follow that outline. Now, I don't chain myself to it--if I find a hole, it's getting fixed before I move on--but it's immensely helpful in keeping everything straight on longer projects, where it's easy to forget important details.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  7. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    I don't, it just happens. Some stories can't be told in 15-60 pages.
    Granted as a pantser, it all just starts with a concept and a few
    other things, then slowly comes together. :)
     
  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    generally speaking i don't plan except in my head , but my process doesn't change depending on the length of the story - most of my novels come out at about 60k words but i generally reckon a story is a long as it is
     
  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I like to write the scenes that seem most vivid to me, to start off. These are the scenes I can clearly envision, before I start writing. They don't actually have to connect to anything ...yet.

    These are the scenes where I discover what my characters are like, how they interact with each other, maybe something about what motivates them, what they are afraid of, what they want.

    The very first scene I wrote for my novel, Brothers, is a short scene that takes place in the middle of the book. The two characters involved communicate mostly nonverbally in this scene. It's not even a pivotal scene, but I had it very firmly in my mind's eye. It got me going. When I finished writing that scene I knew I could write the book. I wrote a few more random scenes, to get the ball rolling for other characters and settings.

    Sooner or later I had to start pulling these random scenes together. What happened to cause the scenes? What happened as a result of the scenes? This is where big Eureka! moments happened for me. This is where the story finally came together and I knew where I was going with it.

    So—while I started out completely pantsing to discover my story, I did eventually need to knuckle down and get plotting, so the story would hang together and make sensible progress.

    The opener of the story is what I wrote last of all. An opener launches the story in a particular direction. Until I was sure what that direction was, I couldn't write the opener. I wrote several openers that didn't work, before I hit on the one that did. Biggest Eureka! moment of all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
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  10. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    My first novel started with a true life incident between me and a friend that established characters, and then I just made up the rest as I went, the story revealing itself as it developed. But it doesn't really have a 'plot.' It's also not very good.

    My second started as a random paragraph of a character speaking about their mother, which turned into a short story. Similar to what Jannert said, this scene is not the start of the novel but was an evocative idea that established the character. As the idea grew further I began to map out the story and wrote the last chapter to have have a specific goal of where to end up and keep me on track. Then I created important events and stitched them together until it was a solid mass, moving some scenes around to suit newer events, as many parts of the story are not linear.

    For my scripts they generally get structured right from the start. I list the major events and plot points in a summary, which is the more creative part, and then build the script up scene by scene.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  11. Mish

    Mish Senior Member

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    Most of the time I begin writing with a firm idea of the beginning, the end and a couple of middle sections of the story, with one or two climatic scenes in between. If I don't have that established in my head, I write my ideas down and then let them rest until I feel inspired enough to have these sections established. From there onward I am mostly filling in the blanks going from scene to scene, although each scene is a mostly a new experience and often I get brand new ideas for the story just through the process of writing out these scenes.

    I like to write in order, beginning to the end, but having said that I try to summarize the middle sections and the end whenever I feel inspired.
     
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  12. Jon7z

    Jon7z Member

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    I use the Snowflake method (https://www.advancedfictionwriting.com/articles/snowflake-method/).
    Essentially, start with a one-sentence summary of the story, then expand it to one paragraph, then expand it to four paragraphs, etc. Eventually, you will have a scene by scene plan for a full-length novel.

    The method was very effective for me (I struggled with planning prior to this). It is systematic and fulls out everything. Having said that, I adjust the story as I go along as well. I am not constrained by the plan. It forms the backbone to a complex, inter-weaving novel of plot and sub-plots which is difficult to do if you are ‘flying by the seat of your pants’.
     
  13. Rae_3

    Rae_3 Member

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    I am no expert, but here's what I do.

    I develop a plot line. Figure out who was going to meet who, everyone's relationships, how everything is connected, and how the story is going to end. And with that plan, I just wrote. I always end up adding new twists that even surprised myself.

    So basically, I just write according to a very detailed plan and then tweak along the way. It's a real journey for me and my characters. It might just be me that does it like this, but it works for me :3
     
  14. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    I tend to give a moment about what genre I hope to write, roughly the place and time and something wacko about the MC, and that's mulled over as I get the last few chapters of the last book off the table. Thus, when I sit down to finish the last book I make it a law that I also start the next one.
    Here's the deal: If you start with the right situation, in scene, in character, compelling and fresh, all you need to do next is make things worse. 300 words into a novel, you ought to know that it's a go for 100,000 words. The less you know about where you're going from there, the better.
     
  15. GaMeFreakJ

    GaMeFreakJ Active Member

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    Yeah, I like to plot. A lot.
    I'm still a beginning writer an as such, I don't know if it works for everybody.

    I start with my general idea of the story. The protagonist and the setting are clear.
    Then I start to think about some events that happen throughout the book/progress.
    When that is enough to motivate me to write the actual story I start worldbuilding the entire thing.
    Then I implement the magic system or other systems that need to be in the story.
    When that is done, I start with the ideas and the systems and everything.
    Then the idea's that need some improvements and expansion.
    After that, I plan the characters, friendly and enemy.
    And then I start plotting the chapters.
    So... that is my kinda thing to do. I don't know if this will help but it works for me.
    Greets!
     
  16. GaMeFreakJ

    GaMeFreakJ Active Member

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    Hey,

    I got a little question about the worldbuilding. I've read through the tips and setup but can't seem to find the overlapping world.
    Like, the questions you have to ask yourself before writing: Government / people/ time / population / money / rich, poor etc.
    Greets!
     
  17. bdw8

    bdw8 Member

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    I use a very iterative process. My early process is a lot like what others have mentioned -- but, putting those together, my story would always disappoint. Rather than giving up, I've been iterating on the same story for years, and though I'm not yet finished, I can say that the process works well -- almost too well.

    Also, let it be known this is a modification of a method I heard Gene Wilder discuss in an interview. Basically, he said writing a story is like building a house. You start off framing it, then take a sledgehammer and tear down all the weaker elements. Then, you build those back up again, and repeat until everything is rock solid.

    1) Brainstorm setting, scenes, characters arcs, basic plot, etc. Scribble them down on pieces of paper, but don't get too attached to anything yet.
    2) Develop these as sequences. Basically, consider the story that exists within and between each of the characters. How does your MC change? How does your MC's relationship with her love interest change? How does your MC interact with the heavy? By breaking it down into sequences, rather than managing one large story, you're managing a dozen or so smaller stories.
    3) Interleave these sequences into a draft, and flesh it out. Let your characters do their thing, and be willing to revisit step 2 as necessary. This is also where you get to focus on the narrative, pacing, etc. This is your master draft -- save it and back it up, as you'll improve upon it with each iteration.
    4) Take all you've written, and summarize it in a single page. This is important for discovering the strongest / most important aspects of your story (and, conversely, identifying the weakest / least important aspects).
    5) Discard the weakest elements, and repeat steps 1-5 until you've made your summary as good as you possibly can.
    6) Reach out to a professional for critique, then repeat steps 1-6 until they approve.

    Ideally, at the end of this process, you'll have not just an outline, but a clear vision of exactly what each scene needs to accomplish. I'm a plotter, but I think everyone has an idea of where things will end up going as they're writing. Pansters just don't force it. This is why I think it's so important to write everything in a longer draft (step 3) before boiling it down (step 4) -- it gives you an opportunity to let your characters make the decisions. If you skipped step 3, it would feel like the characters were at the mercy of the plot.

    Steps 5 and 6 are where I've been stuck for years. I think a good writer who knows what they're doing could almost skip them, but they've been the most important (and most painful) part of the process for me. Getting feedback from a professional (a script consultant, in my case) will break any ego you have. You'll cry, crawl into bed, swear to give up writing, then hopefully come back even stronger. You'll also become a better critic. This whole process is frustrating, but at the same time, my WIP is better now than I ever thought myself capable of -- and with each iteration, it improves even more. It's hard to stop.

    In fact, I recall in the first critique I got from my consultant, there was just one sequence in my story that he actually liked. Yet, by the third or fourth draft that he critiqued, that sequence was the weakest part, and now it's gone. It's sad to see things go sometimes, but my entire story is now stronger than the strongest part of my first draft.

    It's a lengthy process, and sometimes hard to stay motivated. My best advice there is to only write something that really has a lot of meaning to you personally. I would have given up by now if my WIP didn't mean so much to me. Also, while the process is always difficult, you become better at it with practice.
     
  18. badgerjelly

    badgerjelly Contributor Contributor

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    I’ve never completed a ‘Long’ piece of writing ever. I have written somethings and generally base the piece on an idea and then once I’ve explored it a little set out a rough word count for each part. Each part is usually a ‘scene’ and some I feel need more words than others. Then as I write new ideas develop and/or happy coincidences happen that embellish the narrative - I then add new ‘scenes’/sections as seems fitting.

    I VERY rarely know when the writing will end and find that having the ‘end scene’ in my head vividly to be a reason not to write. I write primarily what I like without much concern for the reader, so if I know the outcome with clarity I don’t really feel the need to write it.

    If you wish to publicly ‘productive’ I guess you should probably set goals. Write a heading for each ‘chapter’ and order them. Set yourself a word count for each part. Then, most importantly, set an achievable date to complete the first draft and calculate where you need to be week by week (AND try to ‘beat the clock’, think of it as race and try to beat the deadline by weeks/months - cerebral workouts are good! The more you condition yourself to write more and more the easier it will become AND the lulls in between will be ten times more refreshing and invigorating for the next energizing mental workout - I’d also recommend an actual physical workout too as this will stimulate your neural activity; worth using this as a ‘punishment’ too so if you fall short on your schedule do some squats or whatever). Wow! Long parenthesis! Haha!

    GL to you, me and all.

    Speaking personally I started supplementing creative writing and reading fiction with non-fiction ... now it seems I’m supplementing my study/research into writing with creative bursts! My personal fear is writing the novel I wish to write too early and making a mess of it. Silly I know, but it has been a continual battle to make myself write something ‘bad’ before writing something ‘good’, and so what I really wish to write I tend to hold at bay for fear of shattering the idea into a terrible incomprehensible mess. Or maybe my caution is justified? I have at least set a date now and I recommend you do the same :)
     

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