1. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Senior Member

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    Trying to make an alchemical system.

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Mouthwash, May 30, 2019.

    My main character relies heavily on alchemy, and I'm having a bit of trouble with it. His use of potions doesn't feel very interesting or engaging, plus I'm afraid of backing myself into a corner later on by making some things over/underpowered.

    I'm mainly looking for resources or fiction to draw from (Google has surprisingly little on the subject, and God knows I'm not just going to copy from some vidya game), but personal thoughts on the matter are welcome.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
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  2. GrJs

    GrJs Active Member

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    Add a technological aspect to your alchemy. How is your character applying age old systems? What is unique about the way your mc uses this technology? Are they using it in a way they shouldn't but that actually gets the results they want?

    With things like alchemy and magic systems it comes down to how your character is utilising what they have and if it's consistent or not with the status quo. Or if your character is predestined for greatness or is just born super powerful.
     
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  3. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    I'm sure you already know of The Philosopher's Stone. But did you Know Isaac Newton wrote a book on the concept?
    I was just talking to a friend of mine about the complicated methods used in processing some metals. I'm sure in a fiction or fantasy form you could design your own process that would seem complicated for the time period.
    My suggestion would be to Google "How is tantalum made" and Iridium and so on... I did that for Titanium and came up with the Kroll process. From all of that information you could glean out what you need. I love the research as much as the writing.
     
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  4. FaceOff

    FaceOff Member

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    This is interesting because, in almost any popular book, alchemy would be "hard magic" as defined by Sanderson.

    But... that's just chemistry. Whereas alchemy as found in old books is pure, utter illogical nonsense. Truly wacky stuff.

    So the question is, can you make wacky illogical nonsense consistent? If not, you risk having an unpredictable and therefore unsatisfying story.

    In all plots I can remember involving alchemy, the process itself is, in a way, no more than a plot device. It's the in-between process that explains how you can save your mother's life by killing an underwater golden drake (e.g: the cure for your mother's deadly curse can only be made with an underwater golden drake's heart). I find this to be justification enough plot-wise, but you'll notice they never go into the mechanics of it, partly because it takes away from the sense of wonder. Any sufficiently explained magic is just technology.

    Just a few late-night thoughts, hope they make sense.
     
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  5. Azuresun

    Azuresun Senior Member

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    I'm not an expert on the subject besides reading some second-hand sources, but it might be worth starting with historical alchemical traditions--not just the mechanics of what they were trying to do, but also the philosophies behind it. A lot of the time, alchemy wasn't seen as just a way to get rich quick or live forever, it was a means of spiritual transformation, purifying the body or soul in the same way that physical substances could be refined by burning away the dross. In order to move matter or living beings between states of existence, it was important to understand the world as a whole, and how everything fitted into the grand design.

    Even if your protagonist is in it for more practical reasons, such things could give a backstory to how the tradition of alchemy came about, and what he might eventually aspire to or start exploring. If you tell us a bit more about the setting, we could probably give some more practical advice.
     
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  6. exweedfarmer

    exweedfarmer Banned Contributor

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    Undecided.
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/the-accidental-alchemist-950-words.156812/
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/all-that-glitters-is-not-lead-about-1600-words.157504/
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/rumplestiltskins-smile.157879/


    I wrote something about this. Actually, I wrote three somethings about this. The first two didn't work as stories but the third one stayed afloat even though it didn't have much to do with the alchemy. Feel free to use any and all of them. According the atomic theory (and it still is just a theory) lead is just a little heavier than gold. Might be able to exploit that.
     
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  7. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Try readjusting their costs. Like, the more powerful the alchemy/magic, the more has to go into creating it, or the more it takes from the person using it. Equivalent exchange and all that.
     
  8. Antonius

    Antonius New Member

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    I'd try and answer these questions to figure out if it is the right thing to include:

    1. What does it tell us about the characters that there's alchemy? Is this a world of magic and someone uses alchemy because they're bad at magic? Or is it a very studious person who bothers with learning all the details? Or is it someone willing to risk permanent disfigurement in the way someone in our modern worl risks themselves when they make bombs at home? Is it forbidden and this person flaunts the rules?

    2. What parts of alchemy is common knowledge and what part of it is undiscovered? Will new possibilities or limits be discovered during the story? Is it a compelling and necessary part of telling the main story?



    And I'd try and answer the following questions to make it logically consistent:


    1. What problems does alchemy solve? Why do people bother using it?

    The answer would describe why people bothered with alchemy and it has to solve problems better than other ways that people could do this in your world.

    2. What are the limits of alchemy? Where does it cease to be the best way to solve this?

    For example one might have a potion that would allow you to levitate. That would be incredibly useful for a number of reasons, why would people even bother with carts and pack animals if they can just put some heavy stuff on their shoulders and levitate to where they need to go? So maybe the ingredients are expensive, or they're common ingredients but the process to make them costs a lot of time and the potions lose their potency pretty soon, so there can't be mass production either. Is it legal? Are people socially shunned for it?

    I remember reading one novel that had very powerful magic, but when magic was pitted against magic, it tended to nullify most magic, so you couldn't equip an army with magic swords, because if both sides used magic, they'd end up not having swords at all in all the nullification going on. When you create limits, it helps create a internally consistent story, with all the threats to have good conflict.
     
  9. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    Anyone working with alchemy becomes interesting the moment you notice that he/she does not fully understand things he/she does and tends to make a lot of mistakes.

    And put something priceless nearby...
     
  10. IHaveNoName

    IHaveNoName Senior Member Community Volunteer

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    Not to be pedantic, but despite what various video games (looking at you, Elder Scrolls) call it, alchemy is "the art of transforming matter". What you're talking about is brewing.

    How does you alchemy system work? Does it replace magic, or supplement it (or incorporate it)? Does it rely just on plants and herbs, or does it require animal parts and/or exotic materials and/or magic? How are potions used, and for what purpose? Are they only drunk, or can they be poured/spread over something like oil? Do they react differently with different substances? For example, pouring one into a fire creates a cloud of gas, while dumping one on a tree makes it grow. Can you use them as bombs, like poison flasks? The possibilities are endless.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  11. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Senior Member

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    Actually, the broader definition is basically what I have in mind here. Most of the actual magic in my setting is very subtle, and alchemy does most of the impressive stuff.

    I haven't figured that out yet. There are potions and strange substances, but so far they've just been seen in action. I haven't even properly defined a single one, much less created a general theory for them.

    Should require the use of magic or rare magical items to create, uses all sorts of ingredients, most purposes that there is a demand for (not in ridiculous ways like giving +2 intelligence, instead let's say it could be used to create a hyperfocused state of mind), typically ingested in liquid/solid/vaporous form but some are applied externally, I imagine that would apply to any alchemical system, and of course.
     
  12. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Before molecular theory, if you put two substances together and it made a third, that was transmutation.
     
  13. IHaveNoName

    IHaveNoName Senior Member Community Volunteer

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    So we're thinking along the same lines. Good.

    Here's what I would do. Feel free to fold, spindle and mutilate to fit your own setting - I probably went into a little too much detail, but I always get carried away with magic systems. :p

    Premise: Alchemy is the practice of mixing ingredients together, using magical energy to draw forth their desired essences, and infusing them into a potion. Any hedge witch or pharmacist can mix plants together to create a tisane, infusion, or poultice, but they're severely limited in their ingredients and effects. A true alchemist can use almost anything to create a magical potion that can achieve nearly any imaginable effect.

    Before we get into the hows and whys of alchemy, we need a magic system. I decided to go with full-on alchemy - imagining someone puttering around in a lab simply mixing ingredients was boring, and it didn't incorporate magic at all. So: In order to create a magical potion, the alchemist must first draw an alchemical circle, into which he places the ingredients, and around which he scribes various symbols. (I'm a little unclear on the method - whether the base should be water, alcohol, or something else (maybe more powerful potions require more exotic bases?) - and how they should be mixed - in a vial, cauldron, pot, whatever. That's for you to figure out. :)) The circle is designed to draw in and focus the magical power, and it tells the magic what properties to draw out of the ingredients (see below).

    As you mentioned (and as I also suggested), there are three classes of "potions": Elixirs (drunken), Unguents (applied to living beings), and Oils (applied to objects). As alchemical circles have various symbols, so too do these: this is where the uniqueness of the system comes into play. The are three categories of symbols, which vary slightly depending on what you're making:

    Elixirs
    * Base: Mind, Body, Soul(?),
    * Effect: Increase, Decrease, Alter
    * Attribute: Strength, Speed, Health, Height, Weight, five senses, Voice, Memory
    * Time: Seconds, Minutes, Hours, Days (see below)

    Elixirs are used to affect anything inside the target's body - brains, organs, bones, muscles, etc. For example: you want to make an elixir that increases strength. You'd use the symbols for Body, Increase, and Strength. Likewise, something to make someone dumber would be Mind, Decrease, and Speed (the smarter you are, the faster your brain can make connections, so the opposite is also true). Health is for general healthiness - it can be used to help someone get over an illness faster (or stay sick longer), or make them more or less resistant to diseases. It can also offer relief from chronic ailments, reduce pain, or put someone to sleep (Body, Decrease, Metabolism)

    Alter is for changing properties "laterally" - say, you want to change your hair/eye color, or even your entire appearance. It is possible to change certain attributes (height, weight, voice) to mimic those of another living being; in this case, it requires something associated with that attribute (voice would require saliva, height/weight requires a skin scraping, hair would use some hair, etc.). If you want to assume someone's entire appearance, you need a vial of the target's blood on top of everything else. (There are rumors that if you want to effect a permanent change, it requires the target's entire body, destroying it in the process.) This is the only case where an elixir can effect outward appearance. Elixirs can be used to alter memory, but not erase it.

    Unguents
    * Base: Body
    * Effect: Increase, Decrease, Alter; etc.
    * Attribute: Toughness, Hardness, Health, Visibility(?) etc. (I added the last because an unguent of invisibility would be too cool NOT to include.)
    * Time: As above.

    Unguents are designed to affect the target's exterior - hair, skin, nails. As far as healing is concerned, I'd say that unguents can't heal internal damage (anything that doesn't break the skin, like bruises, broken bones, and internal bleeding) and elixirs can't heal external damage (cuts, burns, scrapes, etc.), though they can stop bleeding by sealing blood vessels (since they're under the skin).

    Oils
    * Base: Material (wood, metal, paper, fire, water, ice, etc.)
    * Effect: Increase, Decrease, Alter
    * Attribute: Hardness, Density, Freshness, Purity, etc.
    * Time: As above.

    Oils can make paper water- and fire-resistant, swords that don't rust (or oils that eat through metal), purify liquids (great for clean water or negating poisons!), or even make flames burn hotter or put them out entirely. Time, in this case, can also be used to speed up or slow down a reaction - say, you want to make a time-delay acid.

    Ingredients
    Just about anything can serve as an ingredient, from basic herbs to gemstones and metals to rare and exotic materials. A given ingredient can have more than one use, so it's important to use the proper symbols. There are plenty of resources about the properties (real and mythical) of various herbs and gemstones, so that can give you a good start.

    Those are the basics. Now to get into more advanced alchemy.
    * Symbols should have names (not the ones I gave, but actual names) - I'd use Hebrew or Egyptian (Coptic) as a base; dunno why, but it feels right. Even if it doesn't match the languages in your world, you can pass it off as some ancient lost tongue passed down through the ages, or just the "language of magic".
    * You should figure out how long a potion's effects last; I'd suggest a base of 5 or 10 minutes (instantaneous effects aside). Increasing duration increases power and required materials, except if you're slowing down a reaction. Altering time requires power in any case, but slowing something down uses less than speeding something up. Potions with instaneous effects (healing, e.g.) can be slowed down.
    * You can make a potion with multiple effects (strengthen body, speed, and intelligence, e.g.), but doing so obviously requires more symbols, which requires more power. I would use a ranking system (internally, not in the story, unless you want to do it) whereby I could keep consistency - figure out how many symbols an alchemist of a given rank can use (or, if you're really into mechanics, you could assign a point system and figure out how many points - i.e., magic power - a given spell infusion would require).
    * Alterations become harder the further you want to change from the base. Changing, say, hair color from brown to black is easy; changing it from brown to green (assuming green isn't normal) is a bit harder. Fully changing one's appearance requires a lot of power and a lot of symbols - in addition to Alter and Body, you need one for every attribute you want to change: height, weight, hair/eye/skin color, and voice. I don't think it should be possible to change a human into an animal or vice-versa, but it might be possible to change a human into a non-human, assuming they have the same basic form, or an animal into another animal.
    * Alchemy is something that anyone can learn, given enough time and dedication (and brains, obviously), but since it takes years - if not decades - to master, few do. (Just my take on it - I don't know how your magic works, but "alchemy as magic" seems more inclined to be a learned thing, rather than inherited.)
    * How do people see alchemists? This is something that only you can answer, since it's your world. There may or may not be guilds or organizations that foster alchemists; alchemy could be considered the dark arts, or people who practice it could be highly-respected and sought after for their infusions.
    * Some resources: Scott Lynch's Gentleman Bastard series (which are excellent books) is a semi-steampunk world, but instead of steam, it relies on alchemy (there aren't a lot of mentions of it, but it could give you some ideas). Likewise, the anime Full Metal Alchemist (another good one) is centered around the use of alchemy (not potions, but transformation of matter). Otherwise, you can find a full list of stuff on TVtropes here and here. This might also be of interest.


    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlchemyIsMagic
     
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