1. isaac223

    isaac223 Senior Member

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    Superheroes in Literature?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by isaac223, Jul 22, 2019.

    Superheroes in literature aren't untread ground. Brandon Sanderson himself has touched upon it in The Reckoners series, and V.E. Schwab's Vicious has been renowned for its sense of character. Otherwise, there's a few more notable examples, but the genre -- superheroes in non-visual literature -- is very young and very undeveloped.

    Surely, of course, there's a benefit to writing about superheroes in such a format as opposed to, say, just commissioning an artist for you (beyond the cost, obviously) but there must also be form or standard to it?

    What goes into writing superheroes into a novel? What needs to be different? Do there need to be less but longer arcs? A greater focus on themes? Can superhero stories in the traditional sense of older Marvel or what have you not be translated into novel format?

    What form is there for writing a superhero universe into a novel?
     
  2. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    I would start by identifying the things that people enjoy about super hero stories and separating that out from the things that people enjoy about the comic book medium. Literature is a different format, but it:s still storytelling, so some things would be different and others the same.

    Things people like about superheros:
    • Vigilante justice against criminals. The righting of wrongs without red tape.
    • Ethical questions about how to avoid misusing power. Ironman and his orwellian kill drones, spider-man and his responsibilities.
    • Fantasy in the contemporary world. Usually an urban setting with a lot of crime.
    • Elements of every genre mixed in. Action, science fiction, sometimes mystery or horror.
    Things that are more tied to the comic book format:
    • Frequent story reboots
    • Episodic adventures
    • Retcons
    • Inner monologues (since it's harder to describe senses like a writer can in, say, third person limited).
     
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  3. isaac223

    isaac223 Senior Member

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    This is really helpful, thank you! But there's some things I want to keep that are traditionally tied to comic books, more so than novels.

    My idea is to do something along the lines of the Marvel Cinematic Universe where every primary hero begins as an isolated entity with an isolated story, but eventually every character's independent plotlines swallowtail into a central, overarching conflict.

    Now, while I do want each character's own novel to eventually lead-up to this overarching conflict, like in the MCU every character sort of have their own thing going on before something pigeon-tails them into the more central issue. In their individual novels, I wanted to build-up to their involvement in the overarching narrative with a format that replicated the feel of comic books, especially more classic superhero comics.

    Firstly, each character probably should have an established career as a hero before they get involved in proper world-level threats, but I felt like dedicating each novel to a single moderate threat wasn't enough. I was wanted to develop for each hero a themed rogue gallery, so that I could explore themes pertaining to each character while their career as a hero developed so that it could reach the point where they could face a world-level threat.

    But separating a novel into a bunch of small, otherwise independent subplots focusing on a "villain of the week" felt like a risky choice that may make it hard for some people to take the novel seriously, or may risk me losing my ability to more intimately explore certain themes or narratives, or else just make the novel feel more jarring.

    If need be, should heroes star in more than one novel if I feel they need more time to adjust before facing the central threat? Would an episodic format be forgiven if there's a central, unifying theme or themes? Should I focus on more centralized, focused narratives and only have different major villains in different novels featuring the hero?

    There's a lot to worry about when it comes to crafting a shared universe, especially one in a medium that's weird for the subject being written about.
     
  4. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    I think you can do something along those lines in a novel format. I don't really read comic books but my guess is that the each story would typically be longer in a novel. You'll want each book to be a relatively complete and self-contained story that runs between maybe 80,000 - 120,000 word count with a climax at the end, which is just the convention for fantasy. Other variations can be made to work though, of course. The reader and what entertains them is most important.

    Sounds like you have plans for a larger universe in your stories. I do too, but my recommendation would be to put the individual story first, and leave room for it to connect to other stuff. You'll want each of your books to stand strong on its own. To be publishable, something that a random reader can pick up off a shelf and enjoy. Brandon Sanderson's work is a good example of this. He has a bunch of different stories that contribute to each other in small ways. They're set in the same universe, but on entirely different planets. Each story stands on its own, but there are some really deep connections there. The art here is in making something that is enjoyable to both the casual and the dedicated reader. And the same goes for comic books and Marvel movies too -- each of those is meant to stand up on its own, with its own huge stakes and great characters. Comic book publishers don't want you to have to read all the prior comics to pick a new one up off the shelf either. Same with book publishing too.
     
  5. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Drawing on my own experience with writing superhero fiction:

    1) I think at least your core cast should get more than one book, so the audience can get a little more invested in those characters. Audience investment is, in my opinion, a big part of what separated the MCU and DCEU. While Marvel took the time to introduce and develop characters, Warner Brothers tried to dive right into a crossover movie when they hadn't even fully introduced DC's Trinity. The results of those respective approaches speak for themselves.

    2) If you're using "episodic" to mean a main plot made of multiple independent story arcs, I'd say no. When readers pick up a novel, they usually expect to find a single lengthy story, not a collection of serialized shorts.

    3) This is what I did. Each novel has one centralized conflict driven by a major villain with some more minor ones backing them up.

    Turning to your questions in the OP, I think the main difference is that prose and comic books/graphic novels excel in different areas. Visuals allow comics to showcase action better than simple words can, while prose allows you to get much deeper in a character's head.

    Superhero prose is probably better served by a heavier focus on character and theme, which I find is often neglected in comic books.
     
  6. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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  7. isaac223

    isaac223 Senior Member

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    I'm not sure if you're trying to be helpful by providing classical examples of... vaguely superhero figures in literature, or if you're just trying to be pedantic about what constitutes a superhero.

    I meant the traditional pop culture depiction of superheroes. There's definitely a distinction between fantasy epics or historical epics where the protagonist happens to be an extraordinary person, and comic-inspired tales of superheroes, in form, setting and style. I feel like calling mythological tales "superhero literature" is just the slightest bit wrong. "Epic hero" is definitely it's own classification.

    That isn't to say I can't learn from these novels how to feature one predominantly powerful character in a novel, just that the depiction of traditional pop-culture superheroes in non-visual literature is definitely newer and I'd argue it can be traced to, but is ultimately distinct from epics, and a further cry from mythology.

    Thank you! I was second guessing myself because of the inter-medium translation, but it definitely makes sense a novel should not only stand on its own in a void, but also be centralized around one major conflict. Thank you. I lost track of that when getting caught up in the idea of a shared universe.
     
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  8. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    I'm trying to point out that...

    superhero as an archetype
    =
    demigod as an archetype.

    Superhero stories are slightly updated demigod stories.

    And that is very old genre - older than printed literature.
     
  9. John12

    John12 New Member

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    Frankly I can’t imagine a novel which has as the main character a super hero. They belong to comic books and are fantasy figures which don’t exist in real life. How can you develop a personality for a super hero? He is what he is and that will take a paragraph to explain to the readers. Sorry I can’t be of any help.


    John.
     
  10. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Well, "superheroes" have existed in literature since the stories of Gilgamesh. In fact, ancient myths are a great source for idea on how to develop character. The Trojan War features many heroes, who were sons of gods and not ordinary men. Paris changes from being a noble prince to a cruel, divisive figure.

    Superheroes can be human too.

    One of the most well-written modern heroes in Marvel is Captain America. It would be very easy to make Cap a caricature, waving the Stars and Stripes around and singing about freedom and democracy. But he isn't like that. He's very aware that he's dressed in a flag and people see him as a symbol.
     
  11. John12

    John12 New Member

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    Homer’s The Trojan War written around 750 B.C. when Gods lived in Olympus and apparently you could look up to the night sky to see them, but I don’t think you could call any of them Super Heroes as most were really vengeful if they were upset. Of course Fantasy is a topic for novels and many have been written but tn the 21st century most of us think of Super Heroes as cartoon figures and it’s very difficult to see them as a main character for a novel.
     
  12. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    https://www.wearingthecape.com/

    http://www.mercedeslackey.com/books/secret1.html

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00W851ZWC/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i4

    And that's just a few series that I have read. I personally quite enjoy the genre. Not much of a comic book fan, so I like the novel form.
     
  13. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    What if you started the book with an overview as to what the central problem will be. If it's a crime or criminal organisation the superheroes will be fighting, let's see this in action. Make it seem pretty unstoppable and grim. Somebody needs to take this organisation DOWN....

    Then start introducing your superheroes one by one—maybe giving each one a chapter to themselves, with all the backstory etc. And have each chapter end with them becoming interested in the central crime/criminal, and deciding to go for it, in terms of attempting to defeat it.

    After they've all been introduced to the reader, one by one ...and by now the reader will be 'getting' where this is going, figure out a way for them to meet up. Do they know each other beforehand? Or not? Think of a really great way for them to become aware of each other's efforts and throw them together.

    And let things start to happen.

    I think if you start with the overarching problem—and make it seem really difficult to solve—rather than starting with each superhero's backstory and biography and leaving the reader unsure of what you're setting up—you'll keep the interest level high AND provide a focus for the superheroes' involvement. Before they even get started, the reader will be cheering them on.
     
  14. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    We write about lots of things that don't exist in real life. That's what all the genres and subgenres of speculative fiction are at heart: stories about things that don't exist in real life.

    How do you develop a personality for a superhero? The same way you do for any other character. You nail down what they want. What they need. Why they do what they do. What shaped them into the person they are today. How they feel about the world around them. Then you work this into the actual story.

    The notion of superheroes as one-dimensional cartoon figures hasn't been true since the early Silver Age of Comic Books, and even then it wasn't true of all the characters. These days, pretty much all of the major heroes have some psychological complexity to them. Alan Moore's Watchmen, Tom King's ongoing run on Batman (2016), and Netflix's Daredevil are all great examples of solid character work involving superheroes.
     
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  15. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    What's a superhero? Someone who can do things normal people can't? Well, that's the mainstay of fantasy, isn't it? There's no material difference between Harry Potter and Dr. Strange.
     
  16. John12

    John12 New Member

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    Harry Potter is a Super Hero?? Never heard of Harry called that.
    Super Hero’s are mainly an American invention and comic book characters.
    I’m trying to think of a storyline with a Super Heroes as the maim characters the best I’ve come up with is this.

    Bug eyed aliens from the planet Zork invade the Earth, the Pentagon call on Squirrel Girl and Captain America to sort them out.
    Kapow! Zap!Sorted,The End.
     
  17. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Then you've clearly never read any comics. Stories are far more sophisticated than that.
     
  18. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Some of them are. A lot of them are incredibly silly.

    Call them proto-superheroes, then, because they're really not all that different literature wise, except over the past few thousand years we've changed the themes surrounding the heroes. Largely shifting towards politics and internal struggles rather than our struggles against the unknown as we gained control of the environment around us. Also kind of funny considering how many X-Men stories have basically tried to claim most Classical Heroes as early mutants, or, you know, ancient versions of modern superheroes.
     
  19. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Some of them are, deliberately so. But these days, I find most are a lot more thoughtful than they were in the 60s. No more Kapow! Bam! For example, in the Secret Empire story, when Captain America is corrupted to become a Hydra agent and takes over the US, he becomes president entirely legitimately - the people appointing him because they fear "the enemy", When it comes time to put him on trial, he points out that he has actually broken no laws. It's a pastiche of Hitler's rise to power, and a commentary on current US politics. And all throughout, evil Steve Rogers still somehow manages to still be Steve Rogers.

    I've not seen many stories that are simply fisticuffs in Marvel, at least. Even Iron-rich-white-kung-fu-guy-Fist manages some good storylines. Audiences are much more sophisticated these days.

    This. Marvel has actually co-opted a few gods and heroes as superhero characters - Thor, Hercules, Loki, Ares.
     
  20. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    @John12 , I feel like you have a low opinion of the genre as a whole and so are deliberately overlooking a vast amount of information. There is quite a lot of depth and characterization in superhero stories, they are not just shallow, flat characters and plotlines. As @Naomasa298 pointed out above, the storylines have greatly improved over time. Like much fantasy and fiction, the genre has been used to make social commentary on current aspects of the world. No offense intended, but just because you can't think of any good plots or characterization for a superhero novel, doesn't mean they can't be fathomed or created. There is a vast amount of literature out there that proves this, in comic, movie, and novel form.

    With regards to the Harry Potter reference, I feel like a superhero is one with unique powers and abilities that no one else has. Sure, they might overlap some, but for the most part, it's the idea that only Superman can do what Superman does. In Harry Potter, there is a whole portion of the population who can do what he can do, so I don't feel like he qualifies.
     
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  21. John12

    John12 New Member

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    I did a little research on Super Hero’s, I thought there were about 5 or 6 instead I was amazed to find there were a thousand plus and that was only the females. I found the opinion amongst Americans mixed between those who found them ridiculous and those that didn’t. As for me if I was asked to take seriously a female with a fox’s tail pined to her arse I would burst out laughing.
     
  22. The_Joker

    The_Joker Banned

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    Superhero fiction is extremely diverse, my guy. Compare the Powerpuff Girls to Netflix's Daredevil.
     
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  23. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    You need to understand that some characters aren't meant to be taken seriously; Squirrel Girl has often been used as something of a joke character, for example. Gimmicky villains like Condiment King are often regarded as pathetic or ridiculous in-universe.

    Sometimes that ridiculousness can serve a dramatic purpose. In Batman Eternal, Cluemaster's reputation as a "second-rate Riddler knockoff" means Batman and his allies dismiss him as a threat when he's actually the mastermind behind an extremely effective plot that unmasks Batman and nearly destroys everything he's accomplished since donning the cowl.
     
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  24. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Conversly there are characters you were very much meant to take seriously, but just can't. Like Jamm and X-Treme.
     
  25. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Certainly. This is really common with characters created during the Silver Age and Dark Age of Comics. Like...Bill Finger expected audiences to take Kite Man seriously as a threat.
     

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