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  1. RiverSong

    RiverSong Member

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    You have an editor, but...

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by RiverSong, Jul 25, 2019.

    Anyone ever write a 90k plus manuscript, pay an editor who finds lots of mistakes, you fix them, he does a double take, finds a few more, you fix them, then you self publish only to end up with reviews such as "Great potential but excessive grammar errors"? Seeing the phrase "grammar errors" in your book reviews is a gut wrenching. Just looking for some empathy on this topic :rolleyes:

    There may be 1-5 grammar errors, but I understand as a reader once you read more than 3 grammar errors you become annoyed at the "lack of editing". How to truly know your grammar free on a novel with that many words especially when you're paying an editor? :confused:
     
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  2. GrJs

    GrJs Active Member

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    If the story is engaging enough most people won’t notice the mistake unless it is a serious one that makes no sense in the context within the story.

    I’d suggest running it through multiple grammar checks like the one in Microsoft word or whatever your chosen software is. The more the better though as they don’t all pick up the same amount of mistakes.

    Also, take time away from your story. A week for each ten thousand words. As yours is 90k, don’t open it, don’t think about it, don’t even write down anything you come up with that’d be good to add or change. You want to start again with completely fresh eyes then read maximum 10k words a week for a grammar check and you’ll suddenly find that the mistakes you skimmed over will start jumping out at you.

    Don’t hyper focus and forget to take a step back and let your story and yourself breathe. The more time you have between finishing a manuscript and beginning an edit the better your edit will be.

    That being said, a few will still make it through no matter what. But this way you minimise the amount and severity of the mistakes.
     
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  3. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I've seen errors and typos in trad published books - the level of acceptable error is about 1 mistake per 10k words
     
  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I'd be really annoyed if I paid an editor specifically to nail grammatical mistakes, only to find they'd missed enough of them to get an unfavourable review. :(

    I find typos easier to overlook than grammatical/spelling mistakes. However, anything that even momentarily distracts from the story isn't good.

    Obviously you need a good grasp of grammar/spelling/punctuation skills to do editing. There are a few tricks, though. The aforementioned 'time away' is excellent, although I find that more helpful for fixing story errors (problems with story flow, plot holes, character development, research mistakes, continuity problems) than catching typos or spelling/grammatical mistakes.

    To catch spelling and grammar, you need to slow down. The best way to do that is to bump your font size WAY up, so that you only see a few lines at a time. Turn on your 'invisibles' as well, so you can see spacing, paragraph turns, etc. (If you use a spellchecker, keep that turned on as well.) Then go through the piece slowly. Forget about the story itself. Just concentrate on the words.

    The good thing about this method is you can stop any time you feel your attention flagging, and go back later on when you're feeling fresh and ready to go again. It's important NOT to rush this process.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
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  5. RiverSong

    RiverSong Member

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    Thank you everyone for the feedback. I'm using the same editor for my second book and think after his revisions (he usually does two rounds of it), I'll spend more time myself in it looking for errors. My reviews had a focus solely on the story, plot, characters, but all it takes is that one reviewer to make a note about how many grammar errors there are and sentence problems to put everything in perspective. One of the pitfalls of being an indie author is we don't have the thousands to spend on these in high demand editors.
     
  6. StoryForest

    StoryForest Banned

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    Wow, seeing a review like that must be tough. Is it really that obvious to have to "call it out" or could the reviewer be overly harsh? What kind of mistakes are they finding, do you have any idea?
     
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  7. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    If they think it's likely to detract from other readers' enjoyment, then of course they have to call it out.
    I think we forget sometimes that reviews exist entirely for the benefit of potential readers, not as feedback for us. They can often be used as feedback but that's a long way away from their primary purpose.

    If this is a theme in the reviews, I'd honestly consider them reviews of the editor I'd hired.
     
  8. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    I got one of those and I went back through it and found errors in every chapter.
    One of the things that helped besides ProWritingAid, was using script to voice.
    I’ve been through this novel thirty times plus four editors and eight beta readers. Don’t hold me to the numbers, my wife says every time I tell the story I add one.
    Here is a portion of the review I rcvd.
    Overall, I rate this book 3 out of 4 stars. I didn't rate it lower because it's interesting. It's a well-structured novel. Again, I couldn't rate it higher because it consists of some grammatical and typographical errors,
     
  9. RiverSong

    RiverSong Member

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    I think the errors they find are items such as one time I said "17" three times, one after another. Something like this (I'm making this part up) - "He is celebrating his 17th birthday. Now that he is 17 he can have more responsibilities. He was looking forward to being 17."

    A fellow author told me that and I went back later and fixed that in the documented and then re-uploaded it to Amazon. I also noticed (after the reviews) that there were places a period was missing.
     
  10. RiverSong

    RiverSong Member

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    That is the worst to pay all this money for an editor, release your story, get feedback there's errors THEN you go back and see the errors yourself. It's good to hear I'm not alone. Definitely one of the big downsides to not having an agent, publisher and marketing team to keep these type of things in check. I've never heard of ProWritingAid. I'll check that out!
     
  11. NiallRoach

    NiallRoach Contributor Contributor

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    In all fairness, that sounds like a style issue more than a copy-editing problem. Maybe they should have pointed it out to you, but I could totally understand their attitude being "I'm being paid for grammar, not to fix the writing."
    There are editors that will work with you to improve your actual writing, but just the same there are editors whose job it is to fix punctuation niggles. It's important to ensure you know what service you're getting when you fork out for it.
     
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  12. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    I did three major revisions before I submitted to my content editor. She was specifically not looking for typos, but for story content and continuity, though she found quite a few typos. However, after that was done, I did four more major revisions, and interminable read-throughs, and even after setting it up on the Createspace template, one more read-through of the 240k words for typos before hitting the upload button. Advice from prolific author and friend David Poyer: "edit until you can't stand to look it again, then edit again." And after publication, @jannert caught my dolphins doing slow "roles" beside the ship. And a year later, another found one of my intermediate characters changing his name from Demosthenes for a few chapters, then back again. Oops, she was was reviewing it for the MD writer's association awards. Guess she liked the story and was pleased that I fixed it within 24 hours, because it still got the MWA book of the year 2018 for historical fiction! The advantage of POD is that you can upload a correction and no one will notice. Bottom line, edit, edit, edit. I spent from Oct 2015 to Feb 2017 editing and revising, and some still slipped through. And now that I am officially an author, I notice those things in traditionally published books also!.
     
  13. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Not saying I never have grammar errors, but I've also had readers try to call me out on errors that weren't really errors. A couple of times because the actual grammatically correct version sounds weird.
     
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  14. Nordmarker

    Nordmarker Member

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    I also think this is important. Some reviewers are just too sure about their way of building sentences is the only correct ones. Remembering an old timer from Sweden famous on TV, about books and culture in general. He claimed that the common crime novels had over a hundred mistakes on every page which is obviously ridiculous. He probably had the conservative view that language is set in stone by old masters and there is no other correct way of expressing yourself.

    To the OP, why not ask the reviewer of examples to see if they're genuine mistakes (i.e. that most agree with today)? If not it may be a good idea to write a piece pointing that out.

    (Edit: cleanup)
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    thats a good point - equally editors and proofreaders aren't always right (mostly they are but every now and again they're not), and checking programs like prowriters aid and grammarly are regularly wrong... i use PWA fora grammar pass before it goes to the proofreader and it has about a 10% error rate
     
  16. Nordmarker

    Nordmarker Member

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    Yes, and what is really wrong and not just style? It might be a nonstandard style but is it really "wrong"? (I'm talkning about things like the order of words and sentence elements.)
     
  17. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I'm reading some truly awful drek right now. The grammar fails surprisingly often, mostly with subject/verb agreement, not on every page but perhaps every tenth. The style is simply awful. There is no voice to speak of. It reads like an amateur's first draft. It sickens me that this is published. Here's an example:

    Artyom thought that they had no way out, but Maxim, straightening out to his full height, held his machine gun in his hands and maintained fire for a long time. The automatic weapons went silent. Then the section car moved a bit more easily and they had to start running after it to jump up onto its platform.​

    It's supposed to be high action but is a long way from top-tier writing. I suppose you have to read the previous chapters to be fully annoyed at this section's devices. The author has a limited arsenal and you'll spot familiar structures in every paragraph. Here's what I hate here:
    • the author loves adding useless intensifiers, namely: now, that, there. It happens a thousand times. Here it's "thought that they. . ." Better, would have been "Artyom feared they had . . ."
    • "But Maxim" doesn't really work. It should be "until Maxim." Minor point.
    • no way out . . . straightening out (needless phrasal that has the extra baggage of a repetition)
    • held with his . . . (wait for it) hands! As opposed to feet?
    • maintained fire for a long time. (reads like legalese)
    • Then the blah blah . . . The reader assumes that the sentences progress forward through time. "Then" is not needed. Not a big deal, except that this device is used every page. It's a poor attempt at sentence cohesion.
    • a bit more . . . (this does not commit to an image)
    • had to start running ("run after it" works fine. In prose, it is implied that the action begins when it is mentioned.)
    • jump up onto (a phrasal, which is okay, but with all the nonsense around it, it's also weak. "Jump onto" or "leap onto" are better.)
    • "to jump" (infinitives are not as strong as verbs. That would be a non-issue if the sentence wasn't already in need of hospice care.)
    I could probably make ten thousand edits to this book. I don't think that's an exaggeration. It might even be low-balling it. It's a failure of editing on every level. It's a failure of writing. The plot is terrible. Characters and dialog are abysmal. It has no redeeming qualities. How does this get on the shelf? An editor should have addressed this many times over. What I wanted was a cross between a Black Library title and "A Canticle for Leibowitz," instead I get this abomination. I'd be willing to forgive the few grammar issues if the failures of style were addressed.

    This must be how a teacher feels grading essays.
     
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  18. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    This is why I could never become an editor :D How long is this thing? Is it actually published like, traditionally published? But then again, we know that the average reader doesn't care about quality of writing in general anyway. If it's passable, it's enough. Recently I apparently made a friend cry over a poem I wrote (it was around a name and my friend has the same name - it wasn't about her, though it was indeed inspired by her). I banged that thing out in about 15 minutes, half an hour tops. It's fine, there's nothing much wrong with it, but it isn't incredible writing (nothing banged out in 15min ever is). It just made me think how easily readers are won over sometimes... They just don't see writing like we do.

    I now feel like I'd love to have you go over my book... I think I use "But" and "And" a lot. Your "Then blah blah" comment made me think of it, which probably means I do it!
     
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  19. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah. It's 'where do I start?' Yikes....

    I do wonder if this writer might be somebody who likes to make up stories—and maybe watches movies/TV, or plays computer games—but is not a reader. Surely it would dawn on an experienced reader that this doesn't 'sound' right?
     
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  20. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, things can be actually wrong. Like there is no need to put wrong in quotes, but if you are going to, the punctuation (the question mark) belongs inside the quotes. I think the punctuation inside quotations might be an American thing, but it's something a US editor and reader can easily spot as wrong. I don't think style should mean you forgo all the rules of grammar. There are exceptions, but, let's face it, how likely are any of us to be the exception? Still, exceptions tend to know what they're doing and why. You can have style (and great style) without trying to do weird things with grammar or things that editors and readers are going to pickup on as being wrong or mistakes.
     
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  21. Nordmarker

    Nordmarker Member

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    Did you read what I wrote within the parentheses, and also my original statement? And yes it's an American thing to put the puncuation inside. And no I never stated that my english is something to follow. The O.P. said that even after several turns to an editor his/her text still got critique because of grammar so "forgo all rules of grammar" hardly applies, does it?
     
  22. TScream

    TScream Member

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    "This must be how a teacher feels grading essays" OMG, yes!!!! My full time job is as a college professor. I dread grading papers!!!! I spend at least a day on each paper providing feedback, correcting errors in grammar and citations, and telling students how to correct the errors. I don't mind the work, except when the students completely ignore my feedback. I just want to bang my head against the wall.
     
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  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Here is a link to a blog I follow (I know the person who writes it, who has massive experience in the book publication field) and I think she's giving some very good advice here. Basically, that you need to know what kind of editing you want done before you hire an editor.

    She sums it up in three stages of editing:
    Developmental Editing—>Line Editing/Copy Editing—>Proofreading.

    She makes another good point. If you hire an editor and expect them to do all three stages, be aware that they, like you (the author), may be so word-blind by the time they get to the proofreading stage that they make proofreading mistakes!

    https://eleanorabraham.com/2018/05/16/what-sort-of-editing-do-you-need/
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
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  24. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Hey, @jannert -- Didn't check out the blog post, but doesn't a good editor do all that at once? I just don't really see the breakdown in stages like that. I have worked with professional editors. I hired an editor for a project many years ago. If an editor couldn't handle doing all three things, than I wouldn't want them to be my editor.

    I've come to realize the importance and contributions of a great editor. I'm not self publishing, but I am working with editors. And my editor pushes me to get it perfect. Not to mention it comes out flawless on the page the majority of the time. When hire an editor, I would want that same sort of push AND made better of corrected on a sentence level as needed. I think the key is just to work with great editors. If you're self publishing, you get to decide who you want to hire.
     
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  25. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    1 &2 might be done as a piece, but with a novel at least you don't have the proof reading done with the editing, because after the edit you'll want to make changes (in all probability) and that can introduce other mistakes to spag... proofreading should be the last thing done before the novel goes to the formatter/through the formatting software
     
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