1. MackenzieGirl

    MackenzieGirl Banned

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    How to Tell if a Scene Moves the Plot?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by MackenzieGirl, Aug 19, 2019.

    So I think this is where this goes... So there is a lot out there, both in books and on the internet, about what you should and shouldn't include in any given scene in a story. The problem for me is that a lot of the information I find conflicts other information I have read... I am looking for a few different opinions on how to tell if a scene should be in a story, or if it is just filler. I guess a list of questions to ask oneself about any given scene would be nice... Anyway, I hope this makes sense and that I put it in the right place.

    (I mean scenes in books, not screenplays)
     
  2. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    If you can cut a scene completely from a manuscript and it doesn't change any of the arcs, then it's filler. A scene should do at least one of two things: introduce relevant information, and show relevant action, or preferably both. This can be character based or plot based information and action, or preferably, both, but without this nothing actually changes and the story doesn't move forward and is therefore fluff that can be chucked.
     
  3. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I think it should either include some form of information or some form of effective action. This is pretty broad, you can introduce a character, introduces aspects of them, explore relationships in more detail, introduce relevant lore and backstory, grow their characterisation. And you can have all sorts of scenarios where actions make a difference.
    I would say the problem with defining it based on whether it makes a difference when removed is that you can relevant stuff of information and actions that doesn't seem to materially change things. Focusing on whether it's necessary to fit everything together privileges more mechanical basics of character, key backstory and main plot points. But stories need more meat on their bones. Even filler. I mean you can include all sorts of fluffy lore, bits of slightly purplish prose and slightly indulgent moments of fun action and dialogue that really aren't necessary or that productive. Stories are creative exercises meant for entertainment. I think it's important we remember that even though we want to establish logic for the process and emphasise more meaningful and effective writing.
    But yeah, information and action would be the main metrics for relevance. And I would say on a discussion of cutting things at the very least you want to minimise excess fluff; cutting it down to appropriate padding rather than a tangle of irrelevancy.
     
  4. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    I'm not saying world building or mostly irrelevant bits are a bad thing, but there should be, by no means, whole scenes of it if that's not the focus of the story.
     
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  5. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    I think if it's a whole scene it shouldn't just be fluff, but it needn't be crucial. If you focus on whether if changes plot arcs if it is removed, it makes it sound like anything that does not fit into key plot with obvious impact is useless. But they can be relevant without having a blatant and necessary role, something to consider. I certainly have scenes that I don't need that you could argue wouldn't change that much if removed, but that do include various elements of relevant character and action. I guess my point is it's always relative and about weighing it up, not categorical removal of any kind of thing, however unnecessary. And it also depends on what kind of story you are writing as to what your standards will be. My story is supposed to longer, with more in-depth character arcs, world-buildings and complex plot action that moves a bit slower. Other punchier stories would have a higher bar for relevance and a higher expectation of immediate excitement while I'm building immersion and complex themes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  6. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I did this for my novel after I'd finished it - basically read that someone else did it and sounded like a good idea. It certainly helped me see straight away if a scene was frivolous or if the order of scenes could be changed up for better flow. You pretty much just gotta ask yourself questions of, "What happens here, and how does it contribute to the main plot?" First, of course, you need to be clear what your plot is.

    scene breakdown.jpg
     
  7. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    That's more less how I feel as well. In my opinion/experience not all good scenes are "needed" in terms of plot or character development, but they somehow make the story better by being there.

    I'm reminded of the leeches scene in Stand By Me. One could easily argue that neither the plot or characters "need" that scene, but imo – and the opinion of many other people that I've spoken with – it's one of the most memorable moments in the film.

     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    A scene might not move the 'plot' forward, but it might well increase a reader's understanding of some aspect of the story—the character's motives or personality, what relationships are like, etc.

    I prefer to say each scene should move the STORY forward, not necessarily the 'plot.' I think focusing only on 'plot' is a mistake, actually. Good storytelling is a lot more than plot.

    Try asking yourself before writing a scene—or while deciding if you should keep one you've already written: What do I want this scene to accomplish?

    Sometimes what you want to accomplish hasn't got much to do with plot, but it will have a lot to do with what you want your readers to think, or realise, or feel, or understand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    There is no checklist for something like this. At least, I don't think there is one that will really give you the answer if a scene should stay or go. I think this is the kind of thing where you have to trust your gut. I also think it can be very hard to kill those darlings if need be. But I never go through my work thinking, is this scene needed? I just know when something isn't quite right. It can take time to be able to spot these sort of things in our work. But I wouldn't start second guessing yourself on a scene-by-scene level. You originally wrote those scenes for a reason. Does the reasoning still make sense? That's probably the only thing you really have to ask yourself.
     
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  10. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    Your hero/protagonist/whatever has a goal.

    Does that scene has relevance if you think things through that goal? Does it mean? Does it affect? Does it point out? Does it (re)define things relevant to that goal?
     
  11. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I don't believe any scene that doesn't move the plot forward is filler. Some are character building, some are dedicated to side plots or themes, some are of course dedicated to the main plot.
    Also what's your genre? Mystery and thriller are different than other genre's. You describe an outfit too much in a mystery and the reader is going aha - pink hair bow I'll remember it, it could be vitally important. Every detail has to have importance or distraction.

    There's a few scenes that I love in books that you can clip without it doing anything to the plot - the description of Jane's artwork in Jane Eyre. But the fact that it stand out in my mind suggests that they tell me something about her not just the book.

    There's no hard and fast rule. But here are some guidelines I use. Try not to loose sight of your word count. Make your details matter - things should be revealed to shape an impression and give information. For instance I could say Jimmy wore a red t shirt. Boring dull detail. For just a few more words - Jimmy wore his favorite University of California sweatshirt -- I've told you Jimmy is college aged, going to college, where he resides.
    Things that reveal/shape character, are beautiful, relevant to the plot I keep. If it's boring, repeat information, too lengthy or dull - I clip, fix or shorten the information.
    Make mini goals for your characters and your scenes. Decorate them with details that let your readers know what kind of story they're in for.
     
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  12. StoryForest

    StoryForest Banned

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    I know this is the annoying answer but the most effective way I’ve found so far is just to step away from the book for a few weeks. Then come back and read it again. There should be a rhythm to your story and when you encounter a passage that seems to drag or steer you away from that rhythm, you’ll know you have a filler.

    Fillers aren’t always bad, as others have said, it may add to your story but if you find yourself feeling bored reading it or that it just seems out of place then that means you need to cut it or reposition it somewhere else to make it work better.
     

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