When you post poetry what critique are you expecting? It seems to me there is a lack of depth in the critiques given in the workshop. Personally I am looking for analysis, comprehension and pointers regarding the use of metre, metaphor and prosody. If people like something it id nice to hear. If people dislike something it is nice to hear. Neither are of any use though if they don’t say why, offer examples and/or make some suggestion. So what do you expect? Do you think ‘I dis/like it’ to be useful “critique” because I don’t.
I think this is one of the main reasons the poetry section is often so quiet. Those who write largely juvenile poetry soon grow out of writing poetry (because it's just a passing phase to them), while those who want detailed criqitue (the point of a workshop, right?), are most likely severely disappointed with the quality of most feedback. Personally I'd like a thoughtful, detailed critique which helps me improve my piece. I used to attempt giving such feedback myself, but sort-of gave up when the result was feelings being hurt, and in one case even somebody freaking out over it. Bummer. A lot of the trouble stemsfrom the misunderstanding of poetry as something 'mythical and deeply personal which has to come out of oneself in a single sitting and which is perfect as it is', which is all very untrue. Poetry like all forms of writing should be put to the test & revised to be improved. Solar made some good points in a recent post (https://www.writingforums.org/threads/4am-eindhoven.162987/) in that regard - there are too many people who write back with one-liners, saying this or that is perfect, or sometimes you'll get the 'I know nothing about poetry but...' reply. Alas, blame the way poetry is taught (or not taught) at schools nowadays.
I find giving critique immensely useful. I do understand the odd comment being a little drab as some people are just trying to build up post numbers, and if you have nothing much to offer other than praise that is find by me. Strangely enough the more whimsical the piece I write the more responses it gets. When I write something that is actually trying to do something - or rather where I am trying to do something - I then get accused of being ‘sensitive’ and it seems inappropriate to respond to critique. It is a bit of a puzzle knowing what to say and what not to say, what to post and what not to post. I would add that ‘juvenile’ poetry shouldn’t be so readily mocked. I doubt their are many youths out there with a broad understanding/vocabulary. The problem then is not knowing the age of the writer so the solution is to offer GOOD critique - meaning say something positive/encouraging regardless as it does take some degree of courage to post your work (polished or otherwise). As what poetry should or shouldn’t be we could likely argue about that until the end of time. My view is simple enough. Art, ALL art, is about expression primarily. It could be useful if people posted critique of their own work. That way it will give readers a pointer as to what kind of ‘tone’ they are looking for. I gave myself a critique in last monthly competition and tried to be honest about what I had written (which wasn’t exactly ‘poetry’ or a ‘fairytale’ but something in between).
@badgerjelly -- The thing about presenting your own critique of your work is not really something that's going to work for writers. It's our work that stands, and we're not always going to be there to explain it nor should we. If critiquing your own poetry is going to help you with revision, that's great. I would not even read poetry with any sort of author commentary like that on here. In a university workshop setting, the writer has to stay quiet while everyone else in the room stays talks about your work. It's really hard to sit there for an hour and listen to people talk about your story or poem and not be able to say anything. People are known to run out of the room crying. That's not something that happens often. I think if you really want a critique, you have to be open to whatever sort of a response your work gets. You are a creator. You are NOT an explainer. You are NOT a defender. When I say "you" that's a general you to all writers. That being said. The workshop section isn't one I spend time in. I do sell my work, though, not poetry and just don't want to mess around with first writes. Still, if you're approaching the workshop section as a way to learn and grow, I don't see much harm in posting poetry. It can help you learn to write better poetry. And I am a firm believer that what you will write is always going to be better than what you have written. Still, work hard on all those pieces and learn from them. Not recently but I have checked out the poetry section since if I was going to post anything, it would be there. But people were posting clear first drafts. I feel similar to @ReproveTheCurlew's take on it. IDK. It just looked a little like the blind leading the blind. So, I don't really waste my time with it.
But Solar doesn’t offer critique. Making points isn’t really critique - personally I haven’t seen anything from Solar that I would call decent ‘critique’. You’ve made a few posts in the workshop (2 or 3). You appear to have also received decent feedback. What was the problem?
Sorry, I wasn't being quite clear. I wasn't forwarding Solar as the critic par excellence, but pointing out that his evaluation of the overall situation in the poetry section is on par (I admit that some of his feedback, such as on your recent Conscious, can be less than useful at times). And I agree that two out of the five poems I've posted here did receive constructive criticism (one of them coming from you, I might add); one of the poems only got feedback after I pointed out that it was experimental & pushed for more posts. But as I already said last time, it's more of a question of the general culture, not my disappointment or lack thereof of the criticism I've received personally. Go through the list of poems and most critics don't write much in terms of responses. Bad poems are praised to the heavens, good poems are often ignored - as you yourself stated above. The problem isn't in the fact that juvenile poems are being posted and that juvenile poets respond (on the contrary: the more, the better). The problem is the way those who are trying to improve themselves - i.e. those who use the workshop as a workshop and not as an exhibition - are generally not encouraged. Post a lengthy critique which goes into detail and it will be ignored, receive an aggressive response etc. - and it generally doesn't matter how polite you are. The more this general approach happens, the less likely it is that those who make an effort to critique a lot and in detail will actually stick around; a lot of them will grow tired with the poetry section and leave, or become silent readers - and that is always a great pity. I'd personally like to see the poetry section, maybe not quite as lively as the prose section, but certainly more productive in that I can write a critique without worrying over offending somebody's ego and write a poem knowing that it will receive critique without having to force it.
The problem is obvious - none of us are qualified to offer good critiques. Those who would be good enough are busy trying to meet the deadline for their next collection. Yes, critiques rarely offer more than "I dis/like it..." or "I like the imagery..." but that's because it's all most of us can offer. My advice; write what pleases you and by all means post it here for comments etc. Just don't go posting it here hoping you'll get advice good enough to improve it.
Poetry can be so personal that it's sometimes hard for me to relate to it or to try to guess what the poet's intentions were. Badgerjelly's poems seem to me to be more like mosaics or fireworks displays than schematics ... things juxtaposed in non-cohesive ways, intended to spark an impression rather than make a point. If the impression doesn't work for me, I really can't formulate a reason why it doesn't, so I usually don't comment. In fact, I rarely comment on poetry except to point out where a word is misused. or a meter is awkwardly applied, or a phrase is overused, but these are all technical sins, the kind any good copy editor can be expected to catch. This doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the efforts of the poets I don't comment on; it only means that I have nothing more to bring to the table. Ultimately, I am the sole judge of what I write, in the sense that I take responsibility for it and can honestly state: "This is as close as I can come to saying what I want to say, in the way I want to say it." If my work finds a way to provide a handle for you to grasp, I'm glad to hear what opinions you have on the shape of the handle, and how it fits your grip. That's why I post it in the first place. But when all is said and done, the poem remains mine.
Hello everyone! I just joined this forum and jumped on this thread, because I write poetry and I'm specifically looking for detailed constructive feedback. I want to improve my craft.
Good for you! My advice to you, and to others who submit poetry for criticism, is to give your readers some idea of what you think needs improving, or what you are trying to convey. It's like archery ... you can't tell whether the arrow went true until you know where the target was. Of course, we all think we know where the target was meant to be, or sometimes we can guess from the reaction that the poem elicited. That's another reason for my earlier post: we are all different in what life experiences we bring to the table, and these experiences will skew our reaction to the poem. (And that's true of every writer in every genre; we know exactly what we want to say, but sometimes it's not what the reader reads.)
I think poetry is very difficult. It's difficult to write well, and it's difficult to judge. I don't really know why. I know when a poem grabs me, I feel like a little light bulb has just gone off. It makes me suddenly see something I didn't see before, or see something in an entirely new way. It's very rare for me to love poetry, but when a poem grabs me—it does grab me. It's usually the idea that grabs me, not the wording, although if the wording is clumsy it certainly detracts. I have no idea how poetry experts judge poetry though. Maybe that's what's missing here on the forum. Poetry people who really know their stuff. Me? I'm like the numpty at the art gallery - I don't know anything about art, but I know what I like. That's what I'm like with poetry.
This is something I would like to know as well. How does one versed poetry give merit to another's poem? What basis or guidelines, of any at all? It's hard for me to figure out because there are so many different avenues and approaches for poetry for me to latch on to or emanate. What is the commonality between them all,that makes them inherently poetic? I've seen few Reader Response Theorist try to tackle this, and a few New Criticism theorists, but I'm not sold on it yet. And better yet, what makes a good poem?
I think I'm somewhat qualified. I've studied and worked with poetry from the publishing side of things. I also taught an informal poetry course for teens. Oh, how the teen girls love to write about their broken hearts and think cliches are clever. Honestly, what they needed was direction when it came to poetry. So, what did we do? We read good poetry. We read it aloud and many times. I think my job was to really give them a feel for what poetry is. It's not journal scribbling. It's stunning art that can take your breath away or alter your everything. Once they were exposed to what poetry can be, they could understand my critiques of their own work. Still, the focus of my course was not the writing but rather preparing them to actually write poetry. I did do some critiquing of their work because I think it's important to know how much revision even a small, short poem often requires. Go ahead and love your work, but be ready to rework it and rewrite it many times. Giving these young writers an ear for what good poetry sounds like will bring them closer to writing it. Plus, poets read a lot of poetry. I read a lot of poetry. I think there are many benefits to reading poetry that include but go beyond writing. Like I said earlier, it seems like people are posting first drafts that were written quickly and called done. First drafts don't get published. Poetry is just as much work as any other form of writing. It requires our time and our soul. The other thing is that a lot of the poetry posted seems to be from people who really aren't all that familiar with poetry. If you want to be a poet, get a subscription to Poetry Magazine and other similar publications. Read and reread them. Learning poetry requires a lot more than people saying nice things about something you banged out in less than an hour. I'm not so sure anyone here would actually want me to critique their poetry. So, I just keep my mouth shut and stay out of that section.
That's what I've been trying to do for the last four months, reading a hell of a lot of poetry, but mostly from 1950 or before. I'll have to subscribe to Poetry Magazine to really get a feel for what's going on in modern poetry, since I feel detached. I need to continue reading a ton of poetry. So far it has helped me a lot, but I know I'm nowhere near good yet. Probably will be some years of work before I really get a handle of what's going on with it. Thanks for the suggestion and the informed insight on the situation. Also, I think there are a few of us that could really use the opinions of an expert like you. As @Solar mentioned in another thread, we have an "echochamber" effect happening within that subsection. A few people bouncing back and forth trying to critique each other's work without having truly witnessed an acceptable critique. Maybe a couple of real critiques on the work in there from someone who has a clue would help us all understand what really needs to be done. I know a couple of us that can take being torn up. Do what you will, but I think you could have an overall positive effect on the section as a whole, and with only a few examples needing to be placed.
A friend of mine, who is a well respected artist with an international reputation, told me something that makes me smile whenever I hear this statement. He said: "When people say 'I don't know much about art, but I know what I like,' they're really saying 'I don't know much about art, but I like what I know.'" Which brings me to another comment about art. Kurt Vonnegut once asked an artist how he could tell good art from bad art. The artist replied, "You must first look at a million paintings. After that, you will never go wrong."
I’m going to repeat myself again. I don’t buy resistance to offer critique because you believe people won’t like it ... that is condescending nonsense. Some will be offended and they can then move on - or more likely complain to mods (which may be why some don’t offer honest critique?). Also, the point of a writing forum isn’t to post a finished work so posting a first draft is fine. I find what deadrats has said baffling. I also find what Solar says baffling (more so). The reason being not everyone comes here to hear people say ‘I like that’ it’s a false assumption. If we want a poetry workshop of use then you need to post critique that will drive some people away - be honest and polite. I’m not well versed in poetry. I’m a writer with an interest in writing in general. I don’t read poetry books because I don’t really enjoy them, but I read plenty of poems online on forums like this - the quality and activity on other forums is greater. It may just be that this forum attracts less people interested in poetry because the critique is lacking from those here who have the knowledge yet don’t give it. I’ve learnt little to nothing here about poetry over the past year or two where I’ve learnt much more on other forums within the last few months. Keep posting critique owleye because I know you can write. Mingo, keep it up. Everyone else, perhaps you should join in?
This thread got me thinking about poetry. One of my favourite poets is a reasonably contemporary Scottish poet, Norman MacCaig, who died as an old man in 1996. I love his poetry because he creates crystalline images of my favourite part of Scotland, Assynt ...as well as other areas of Scotland as well. However, my favourite poem of his illustrates what I like and don't like about most poetry. I LOVE a poem where the poet knew when to quit. By that I mean a poet who can make me think (or laugh or say 'wow') without then bludgeoning the subject to death by overexpanding on the original idea. Here is one I wish he'd just stopped writing after the first few lines. They are a gem. But then he does the poet thing and rabbits on and on—spoiling the effect and diluting the impact, for me, anyway. I see he was trying to say other things as well ...but these first three lines are, to me, a perfect poem. I wish he had just stopped there, dropped that pearl, and left the conclusions to the reader. Foiled shepherd I drive my little flock of beliefs along a narrow road. They behave well until we pass your house
Problem there is my efforts are guilty of all the things you’ve criticised here. What I post is hardly ever revised or edited (apart from the editing as I write). I do post rough drafts, but that’s because I can’t be arsed working on them. Just writing a first draft drains me of what little creative juice I have these days, and I have no real desire to revisit my poems beyond that first draft.
I have to say there is a problem with reading and critiquing a first draft of anything. Sure, a writer can feel drained. I think especially poetry can do that when you're on to something good. But what's the rush to show anything? Even if it can be good, it isn't going to really be. Wouldn't it be better to give yourself time to really work a piece to its full potential? Then maybe you have created something worth a discussion. @badgerjelly -- My critique from the poems I've seen here is read more poetry. Like with my class, I removed the importance of the actual writing so poetry could be embraced and understood as art. I love poetry, but I write very little of it. Still, I read some poetry just about every day. It's part of my life and I love it. I'm not trying to be a poet, and I'm all for encouraging those with talent. But talent just always isn't visible in first drafts. When I worked for a journal I learned quickly what was good and what was bad. But keep in mind I had been reading many journals for years and was given my position because I was qualified. Call it subjective, but someone is making decisions just like that all over the place. And things that suck or read like first drafts get quick form rejections. There's really nothing to say about that. But when you get to the good stuff and it's time to eliminate so many of those... those poems could could be something worth commenting on. Those poems are worth considering. Those poems could be published. I think in a workshop setting writers showing a first draft is doing themselves a disservice. I've always approached workshops as a chance to show my absolute best and then learn from there when I thought I couldn't take my writing and my work beyond where I had taken it. I don't see the usefulness of first draft feedback. Things like deadlines or contests could be a reason, but if you're dealing with those, you also probably know when to share your work. I have read and critiqued poetry by members on this sight. Brilliant work. I just haven't really bothered too much with the workshop section here. And maybe there's some good stuff there right now. But there just isn't much to say about unpolished poetry.
Have considered that what you may assume to be a ‘first draft’ is actually something someone has worked on and thought about for some time. Maybe they’ve even been reading poetry everyday like yourself but just struggle and need guidance. My advice wouldn’t be to just read poetry. The improvements come by refining the ability to critique others in order to critique yourself. At first it is far easier to see others work with a critical eye than your own. Often enough I’ve found myself giving critique to someone that the previous day, or the very next day, I apply to my own attempts. I’ve openly admitted many times I don’t get much from modern professional poems. I cannot imagine going out and buying a poetry book because every book I have picked up and looked at doesn’t have pieces I consistently find appealing (John Cooper Clarke is probably the only poet whose stuff I get a kick from reading 90% of the time). That doesn’t mean I write without an intent to improve and explore, nor does it mean I aim to be the next great poet - frankly I don’t have one specific area of artistry I’m committed to. With writing we can be playful and have fun. It doesn’t have to be so serious nor does be ‘playful’ mean we aren’t trying to explore and improve our skills. If someone feels like it’s a waste of time giving critique to a poem because they don’t want critique then they’re missing out. The field of poetry is broad. My aims are more prose based. Anyway, I hope you can perhaps offer up more in the workshop? Have a look, offer a word of advice (ignore my bits if you like) and/or post something you’ve written you find appealing. I started this thread hoping to beat some interest into the workshop. I do think the workshop needs a stronger voice in matter of technical critique. I’m not versed enough to give much more than a gut feeling reaction to the mood/feel as I’m not always sure what the technical jargon is and/or the technical details I am referring to. The only strength I have is a natural feel for rhythm - euphonic quality.
