1. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City

    Balancing between character, setting, and plot.

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by NK_UT, Dec 14, 2019.

    How does one strike a balance between plot, character, and setting? I got some advice on my last thread suggesting that (during the second draft/editing phase) one should toss out anything that doesn't drive the plot forward. This wasn't the first time I heard this, and it's sound advice. That brings up the issue of balancing between the three things mentioned above.

    A character moment may not drive the story forward but may provide essential insight into the inner workings of a character. Same thing with a scene that contributes to world building. If the point is that the character and setting development scenes should serve the function of driving the plot forward, how can these be done without causing the momentum of the plot to grind to a halt?

    I was reviewing my story when this question occurred to me. Thinking about this is causing me to rethink some decisions I had planned out for the as-of-yet unwritten portions of my manuscript.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks!
     
    jannert likes this.
  2. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2017
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    1,191
    Location:
    San Diego
    As you probably know, your work could be plot driven or character driven.
    http://jordanmccollum.com/2012/02/plot-driven-character-driven-means-means/
    Tell us a little more about what you have. Is it in first or third person?

    It’s my understanding that first person is mostly character driven.
     
    NK_UT likes this.
  3. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    22,566
    Likes Received:
    25,882
    Location:
    East devon/somerset border
    Not necessarily - there are a lot of plot driven thrillers in the first person.

    On the wider point the advice to toss out anything that doesn't drive plot forward is terrible advice... you see this bandied around a lot and it never makes real sense. In editing you should toss out anything that doesn't drive the plot forward, develop character, or meaningfully develop setting... tossing out anything that doesn't drive the plot alone will leave your writing flat and without texture (it also varies with the genre - fantasy readers for example tend to expect more setting development information than readers of a hard boiled thriller set in the real world)

    (with my mod hat on I've moved this into the plot forum since it is essentially a plot related question)
     
    keysersoze, Thundair, NK_UT and 2 others like this.
  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    Good question/observation.

    I take the view that everything in your story should serve a purpose. However, the 'plot' is simply the series of events that happen. Many stories have a lot more going on than just that. We feel immersed in the setting, interested in the setting. We grow to love, dislike and identify with the characters. We enjoy things they enjoy, have a laugh with them, etc. All these things keep us immersed in the story. The plot, then, becomes invisible. Which, in my opinion, is kinda where it should stay.

    Take a scene which, if you were simply doing a linear plot, you could easily leave out. However, what does that scene accomplish? It should accomplish something. But that something might be the reader finally realising that your two characters are in love, and have been since early childhood. And realising that this character probably won't ever want to leave the setting. And we might share the character's love of his own house, so later on, when he IS forced to leave it, and the house gets destroyed, we will share his grief and anger because we felt his love for the place. All these kinds of things get us to care about the story. And they have to be experienced (second hand) by the reader, in order for us to care.

    Just saying: he is in love with her, and their home town is comfortable, and their house is just exactly what they wanted, but now the tractors run by the bad guys have come and are bulldozing the place, so they have to leave, and they're not happy, so they ...who wants to read a list of stuff like that? That's the plot. Obviously, for a story to strike us as being worthy and moving and interesting, it needs a lot more.

    Don't be afraid to over-write this sort of thing. Obviously later on it can be edited down. But don't let people try to turn your novel into flash fiction or a short story! A few diversionary scenes are fine, as long as they contribute to the overall impression you want to make.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
    Lew, peachalulu, NK_UT and 1 other person like this.
  5. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    Thanks for stating why you moved this thread. It can be frustrating when a thread is moved without knowing why the reason why.

    As to your reply, it makes sense.

    The story I'm working on is a first-person POV (to answer Thundair's question). It follows a security officer in a near-future dystopia as he wakes up to the realization that he died long ago and has been reliving the last few days of his life on repeat as a simulation. From my perspective, the story is and should be driven more by the character and his reaction to events within the setting that drive him to come to this realization.

    Incidentally, I'm looking for some good first-person POV sci-fi/thrillers to get more examples of how writing in first person is handled by other authors.
     
    jannert likes this.
  6. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City

    Very clear and impactful explanation of your take.

    I have had doubts as to whether or not some things should be in my story, because they don't serve to move the plot forward. As far as major plot points, there aren't many of them. Most of what I've been writing is meant to turn the setting itself into a character that the main character has a sort of intimate love-hate relationship with, and so a lot of the story is devoted to detailing how he interacts with and reacts to the environment. At least a full third of what I have so far revolves solely around him and the setting. He does interact with a few humans (both living and dead) in the first quarter of the story, but all of those save one are meant to be extensions of the setting and act as manifestations of the setting, rather than characters.

    I don't know if I've described that well or not.

    In terms of plot devices and plot points, the list is fairly short. There are a few major happenings. discovering a survivor in a situation where he has no expectations of finding anyone alive, what he does to ensure her survival after finding her, being accosted by people who want to probe his understanding of the events surrounding her intended death and subsequent survival, and his decision to try to find out the cause of it all. Aside from that there are the sequence of events that link each plot point together. I'm not sure if this amount of "forward momentum" (if I can say that) is appropriate for the number of pages written to this point (414 as of this posting).

    If it isn't obvious, I'm not educated or versed in the slightest as to how a story is crafted or the components of a successful story. To be totally honest, having straddled the English and Non-English speaking worlds for my whole adult life up to just a few months ago, I'm not even sure anymore if what I'm saying is grammatically correct or not. All I know is that having lived in a real-life dystopian nightmare world for more than 10 years gave me a lot of kernels around which to construct my stories. My head is now populated with this immense fictional world based loosely on my own real-life experiences, and I feel driven to put it in novel format to share with others.
     
    Lew and jannert like this.
  7. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    Well, if what you've written here is any indication, you will have no trouble with grammar! :)

    I would say just carry on writing as you are doing now. After you're all finished with your story you'll have a much stronger idea of what should be kept and what can be cut out. It's better to give yourself a lot to work with, I reckon. I suppose once you become really experienced at writing novels, you'll find it easier to 'edit' as you go, and easier to know ahead of time what will work and what won't. (I've not reached that point myself, having only completed one novel.)

    The plot is more or less 'what happens.' The rest of the story content gives significance to what happens. At least that's the way I feel about it.

    You sound as if you know what you're doing, even if you don't quite believe it. :) And living a dystopian life sounds incredibly interesting. I don't think many of us here can claim that.
     
    NK_UT likes this.
  8. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I like to make sure everything works together. In Lolita when Nabokov/Humbert describes the Haze household he includes in the description three objects – a plum stone (I think or a peach pit), a soiled sock, and a ratty tennis ball. These three objects refer to objects made much a to-do in the story (Lo's one sock, her tennis lessons – the apple scene) It's a way of emphasizing the story is already over/doomed before it's begun, it's brilliant foreshadowing.

    Think of everything be it descriptions, action, plot points as doing double duty if not triple duty.

    I think it's harder when your so plot-focused (a-to-b-to-c) but it's easier when you think in terms of scenes fitting into a broader concept. What is the whole of your novel about? What do you want the reader to take away from it? How can the little pieces fit to bring the whole image together? If you read A Christmas Carol, Dickens utilizes the weather, the time - Christmas, his job, every detail to shape the stinginess and coldness of Scrooge and his final redemption. Nothing is observed that cannot serve to emphasize character and or plot and or theme.

    Another thing -- don't be afraid of doing a little telling. On these and other sites it's considered the kiss of death but I found that if you do it in the right spots, and with a bit of style it can save a huge scene, tighten your pace and leave no room for misunderstandings for the reader.
     
    Lew, NK_UT and jannert like this.
  9. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    17,674
    Likes Received:
    19,889
    Location:
    Scotland
    Yeah, as @peachalulu said, there are times when telling is exactly what you should do. A good rule of thumb is to 'tell' mundane stuff the reader merely needs to know about, but 'show' the stuff the reader needs to experience or feel an emotional connection to.
     
    peachalulu and NK_UT like this.
  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    22,566
    Likes Received:
    25,882
    Location:
    East devon/somerset border
    John Scalzi the Old mans war trilogy
    Heinlein - The moon is a harsh mistress
    John Wyndham - Day of the Triffids
     
    Lew and NK_UT like this.
  11. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    That is a very concise way of describing how each thing should be balanced, at least in theory. I shall be cognizant of this going forward with my story and apply it retroactively when doing future edits.

    As to your comment on dystopian life. Believe it or not, I quit miss living that life. The mundane orderliness of the United States is absolutely stifling to me. Living here is a completely alien experience, and the soulless devotion to order confuses me. On the other hand, the constant paranoia and inability to plan for the future with the knowledge that, despite the iron grip of the techno-fascist government (which I will not name here, those savvy on current world affairs will probably be able to suss out to which country I'm referring), society could collapse into a state of murder and anarchy as it has already done twice in living memory at a moment's notice makes it difficult to remain there. It's a bizarre irony, but I loved my former adopted home and feared it in equal measure.
     
  12. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    I have always felt that the rule on "show not tell" ought to have its exceptions. When I re-read my own writing, I notice where I have "told" rather than "shown", but feel unsure whether or not I should rewrite it. Rewriting would cause it to be unnecessarily wordy, not rewriting it would be violating the "show not tell" axiom, and the only other choice is to simply omit the passage all together, which I'm hesitant to do (despite that probably being the best course of action in some cases). It's a conundrum.
     
    peachalulu likes this.
  13. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    I will certainly check these out. Thanks for the references.
     
  14. AlbertAnims

    AlbertAnims Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2019
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    11
    [QUOTE="

    Another thing -- don't be afraid of doing a little telling. On these and other sites it's considered the kiss of death but I found that if you do it in the right spots, and with a bit of style it can save a huge scene, tighten your pace and leave no room for misunderstandings for the reader.[/QUOTE]

    Could you give me an example of such a scene? I'd like to learn from it!
     
  15. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    22,566
    Likes Received:
    25,882
    Location:
    East devon/somerset border
    its one of those rules are for the guidance of wise men and blind obedience of fools things - in general you should mix showing and telling - show the key things and tell the things that are less plot critical (or setting, character etc critical) - a book that was all showing would be deeply tiresome.
     
    Seven Crowns, NK_UT and jannert like this.
  16. NK_UT

    NK_UT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2019
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    180
    Location:
    Salt Lake City
    Show key, tell fluff. So to speak. I shall keep this in mind.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice