?

Is this too contrived or convenient (state your reasoning)?

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. depends how you implement it.

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  1. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    Does this sound too contrived and convenient?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by OB1, Jan 30, 2020.

    Hi,

    In my WIP. My protagonist has displayed some magical abilities and it turns out he is a certain breed of people who has magical abilities. How I have described it here sounds cliché, but I am hoping how I deliver it isn't. In order for my protagonist to destroy the antagonist, he must first learn to wield and enhance his powers because at the moment he is accidently using his powers and doesn't know how to use them. Now there isn't a Hogwarts as such i.e. a school for him to learn this. However, there is a place where others like him live in secret. He is delivered to these people who in turn endeavour to teach him these skills and abilities. Now the problem is, on one hand in the time scales of the story, he doesn't have long to do this. In the other hand, it takes a long time to learn this skill. Is it therefore contrived to have him transported into another world say, a spirit world, where in this world a year is a day in the real world, hence what seems like 12 years to him is actually on 12 days? In which time he has accumulated all the knowledge and experience he needs to fulfil his destiny? The majority of this story will be how he deals with all this.

    I am thinking of a fantasy magical version of the matrix kind of thing. But rather than downloading all information it is taught to him over a period of fantastical time which has no bearing in the real world.

    Thanks for your thoughts and advice.
     
  2. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    A bit like the Hyperbolic Time Chamber in Dragonball where one year is equal to one day.
    https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Hyperbolic_Time_Chamber
     
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  3. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    Yes pretty much like this!
     
  4. WNP

    WNP Member

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    I think if done well it can work.

    The solution shouldn't be introduced at the last minute as a get out of jail free card. Have the concept of this alternate world introduced earlier, then when the character comes up against the time constraint/need to train quickly, the reader will already be one step ahead and it won't feel as much like you're just writing your way out of a hole. Even better if using that world to train has some sort of cost to trade off for the benefit, and that cost creates different problems for the character. For example, he spends 5 real world days there, which gets him to train for 5 years, but actually ages him 10 years or something.
     
  5. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ^ I was going to ask--does he still age? Using magic often carries a price, especially if it's for selfish personal reasons (which it sounds like his isn't) but often even if it's for benign or helpful reasons. Otherwise the magic can start to feel like a deus ex machina, a magical cheat code that solves everything with no cost.

    I think his aging 5 years might be a good device, because frequently encountering and dealing with stressful events does cause premature aging. Often people seem not to age at all for decades when life is going well, but when they run into big problems they must struggle to overcome they might suddenly develop some salt-and-pepper in their hair or people will say it seems like they aged overnight.
     
  6. TheOtherPromise

    TheOtherPromise Senior Member

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    Honestly I feel like how you handle this will affect what the readers want from the conflict.

    For instance if I was reading a story where the hero went through many years of training in some pocket dimension, then I'd expect them to handle the antagonist without too much trouble. However I would be curious about how their time in the pocket dimension creates internal and interpersonal conflicts. How would his friends and family (assuming he has any) react to him being years older than he was a few days ago? How will his time alone in the pocket dimension change who he is?

    On the other hand, maybe he doesn't have the chance to train more than the few months before the villain makes their move. Now I'm curious as to how he will meet his destiny when everyone thinks he isn't ready. What character traits does he possess that can make up for his lack of training? Will he even manage to succeed? Will he be able to rely on the strength of the friends he's made to make up for his own deficiencies?

    Basically if you include the magical training session, I'd be less interested in the antagonist and more interested in the internal and interpersonal fallout of the training.

    If you don't include a magical training session, then I'm interested in how will he overcome the antagonist when the odds are against him.
     
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  7. Fiender_

    Fiender_ Active Member

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    I feel like there would need to be significant, practical drawbacks to using this sort of trick to force your protagonist into preparedness. This is the sort of mechanism I would personally raise my eyebrow at and call convenient. Why doesn't everyone use this spirit world to solve their experience problems? Is it dangerous to be inside, or dangerous to access? (Questions to ask yourself rather than answer in a post)
     
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  8. GrJs

    GrJs Active Member

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    I think it's a bit of an escape route if it doesn't have consequences and would suggest you look at Hunter x Hunter for a good example on cheating power. There's two ways to get access to Nen (HxH magic), one is you take the time and train properly and get the benefits of years of training and experience and control, or, you get blasted with someone else's Nen until the Nen channels activate which has the draw back of sometimes causing permanent physical harm or even death depending on ones own constitution and the intentions of the Nen master. This way gives you power quickly but the draw backs are a lack of training and control and understanding of the power.

    In Hunter x Hunter you can also essentially make deals with your Nen, you can ask for unlimited power but in return you have to put a limiter on that power. The MC makes a trade for power enough to beat an antagonist and in return he loses his Nen because he can only use power he already has in present and future. Another character has a powerful Nen sealing technique but can only use it on members of a group of people that massacred their tribe.

    Ultimately, if it has real world consequences it doesn't sound like such a cop out. But if this spirit world has that sort of time difference and the character doesn't age or have to give up something of import in return to enter the spirit world then you may as well just give the MC the time to train in the real world and not even bother with the spirit one.
     
  9. Thorn Cylenchar

    Thorn Cylenchar Senior Member

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    I think you could make it work--IF you have time manipulation as part of the established magical skill sets of the world. It makes sense if magic is something that requires decades to really learn and get proficient in, but for most the average lifespan is only 70 or so years.

    If you want to avoid this you could have his fighting style/victory come from the fact that he hasn't been trained, so he uses the magic on a more instinctual level than his adversary because he hasn't been taught to use it a certain way. There was a quote from Codex Alera by Jim Butcher (I am going by memory so this might not be exact) "Something in your mind is broken, you approach everything sideways" or something similar. I also had heard a similar quote somewhere about the most dangerous opponent for a trained swordsman being someone who has never wielded a sword. They both boil down to the same thing-people trained from a very young age in a certain skill set tend to approach that skill the way they were trained, those who weren't trained may not know that you are not suppose to do a certain thing a certain way, so may try it. With magic, this gives you a lot of leeway into what/how they can combine things, so you can come up with off the wall plots.

    The key is, whatever you do, it has to make sense based on your magic system.
     
  10. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    So pretty much the agreement is that there needs to be some sort of drawback.

    With regards to giving the time in the real world for him to train, this wouldn't work because the antagonist is coming immanently and he is very powerful. But the character in question, has the potential to be even more powerful. But he hasn't been trained. Hence my reason for having a spirit realm in a different time frame.

    I like the idea of him ageing in the real world in accordance to how he does in the spirit world. I intend this world to be dangerous, to aid in his training and he has to past a series of tests before he can leave.

    The character is about 17 years old when he enters the spirit world, when he leaves he will be middle aged 30ish What I also intend that when he leaves the spirit world, he will no longer age, and become immortal as do the rest of his kind.
     
  11. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    If he spends 12 years in the real,. he would be 29 when he leaves. That ain't middle-aged. Neither is 30-ish.
     
  12. Richach

    Richach Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    It is too awkward. You are saying he can be taught at one speed or at a faster speed. You need to make up your mind which one it is and stick with it. By the time it reaches the final draft it will need to be seamless. IMHO I would just have him trained quickly. Great idea for a story. :)
     
  13. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    Doesn't that depend on the era?

    i.e. in the middle ages for the general Jo, the average mortality age would have been about 50ish?
     
  14. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    Sorry I don't understand what you are saying. He is going to be taught at one speed, it is just relative to the realm he is in. If this was Sci-Fi one could say this other realm is near a black hole, where for the observer time appears to be standing still and for the person in the realm time is going as normal. This is basic special relativity. All I am doing is putting it in a magical construct rather than a scientific.
     
  15. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Depends how realistic your setting is. If his kind all become immortal, there's no middle age!
     
  16. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    I can tell you are from Yorkshire!! :D:D:D
     
  17. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I'm not, I just live here. :)

    All hail Sir Geoffrey.
     
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  18. OB1

    OB1 Active Member

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    Settled in well!! :D:D:D:D

    Just kidding.
     
  19. isaac223

    isaac223 Senior Member

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    Like others have said, depends on how you feel about Dragon Ball's Hyperbolic Time Chamber, I guess. I think if it's introduced earlier, then it's fine to have a time pocket where you can go to train. Realistically speaking, a magic society capable of doing this WOULD likely have something like it for the express purpose of not having young magic users unacquainted with their powers running around and wreaking havoc.

    Alternatively? Also play it for laughs. The protagonist is at the same basic level a magical child born into this society would be, if not lower, so he's forced to train his magics with the young 8, 9, 10 year olds who may even best him as he is! Even the darkest of stories have a little bit of room to take something like magical training and have some fun with it.
     
  20. He Who Has Too Many Dogs

    He Who Has Too Many Dogs Member

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    I would create a special class of magicians who can travel between the two world, or I would make it a special sort of magic rarely possessed. I wouldn't make the protagonist a possessor of such magic, and for him too travel someone must take him there(and ultimately back) at the price of their owm life, or at the price of losing all their magic(meaning two will have to die/lose their magic)
    Because the fate of the world seems to depend on him, someone there(in the secrete society village/ place) will probably agree to selflessly sacrifice themselves and help him, which could also drive him farther to train harder, and succeed, not wanting said person to have sacrificed their magic/life in vain. Dreading his return, knowing it will cost someone else's magic/ life.

    Or maybe make it a ridiculously expensive/unsettling ritual(unless rituals don't exist in your world idk lol)
     

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