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  1. Viserion

    Viserion Senior Member

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    Iron vs bronze?

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Viserion, Feb 18, 2020.

    I’m writing a story involving a large Bronze Age civilization that suffers raids from a smaller Iron Age civilization. Is there anything I should know? The bronze users have breastplates, helmets, greaves and gauntlets, and the iron civilization has full armor.
     
  2. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    What's "full armour" to you?
     
  3. Viserion

    Viserion Senior Member

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    Knight-style armor. No skin except for the eyes.
     
  4. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    If you're using the classical definition, an Iron Age civilisation would not have full plate armour. The Iron Age is considered to have ended in Western Europe anywhere between the first century BC and the 9th century AD (in Northern Europe).

    Plate armour of the type you're envisaging dates from the around 14th century onwards. You'd be comparing a 15th century knight with a hoplite from 500BC - a time gap of 2000 years.
     
  5. Viserion

    Viserion Senior Member

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    To elaborate, the bronze Empire is more inspired by imperial China and Rome, and the iron people have an ambiguous connection to what could be a god.
     
  6. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    In that case, you can really do whatever fits best for your story. Having a God involved can play the strings towards whatever times of protection you desire, probably related in some fashion to that deity of choice.

    The big thing to remember is that the knight-style armor you want for your "iron age" civilization is actually made out of steel. @Naomasa298 hit it right when he's talking about that massive gap in time, if we're going by reality.

    Since you want to go the Roman route, why not just put some high end research in the fall of Rome? I mean, that seems to be what you're going for anyways. The Guals, Germanians, Goths, Visigoths, Tuetons...and so on...could be to an effect, your "bronze age" people, while Romans and their established colonies, or the Pelopennesians, could be your "iron age" group. Romans were beyond iron age in a number of aspects, some lost to us, so you can embellish this in your own ways. But the knight-style heavy silliness was a thousand years later at least. The barbarians overran the far superior Romans on pure numbers, and the Romans essentially fell to the classic case of over extension and building animosity toward their assumed greatness. You can design some stuff around this likeness.

    The other thing to remember is that these metal based ages are more interested in the metals being used for tools, than for weapons. It doesn't necessarily mean they will be using that exact metal for their armor. Bronze age groups will likely remain more in the strappings and hardened leather/fur types of armor, or none at all. Iron age would be a lot the same, but with with better weapons and greater industry.

    I think it would be a bit better to try and research the technology levels of certain groups specifically, as to keep within the ages bounds, then add some elements of fantasy with it involving the deity. If they are divinely protected, they likely aren't going to wear massive plate armor, as they assume a fair amount of assistance from their faith.
     
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  7. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    @Viserion Actually, something similar to lorica segmentata could easily be used by a Bronze-age civilization. Combine that with hoplite helmet (specifically, Corinthian type) and you have something very close to full plate.

    This is the glorious Dendra panoply:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. The Multiverse

    The Multiverse Member

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    I just want to point out that bronze is a much softer metal than iron. In order to stand up to iron, it would need to be thicker and thus would weigh more slowing the one weilding it. It's also worth mentioning that given iron's advantage over bronze, weapons made of bronze would be largely ineffective against iron armor. The bronze tribe would need to be more intelligent and cunning to survive.
     
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  9. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    That is only if you are comparing bronze with wrought iron, and even then bronze has advantages up until the point when iron becomes steel. Cast iron is actually not that different from bronze in terms of strength and holding the edge - if anything, it is weaker and more fragile. What it is, however, is cheaper, more accessible, and has fewer failure points in terms of supply (only one material is required versus two for bronze).

    Dan Howard states that well worked bronze can be as tough as medium carbon steel. In fact, weapons-grade (high-tin) bronze is much harder than iron or even low-grade steel. But bronze weapons still need to be thicker to have same stiffness, and bronze itself is already denser than iron.

    In fact, richer civilizations such as Romans used bronze for more important parts of equipment, such as helmets and greaves. Considering that bronze is more expensive than iron, it would make little sense to do so unless it was also superior metal.
     
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  10. Viserion

    Viserion Senior Member

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    The more advanced civilization (relatively speaking) uses bronze. The iron-wielding people are a collection of disparate (but related) tribes led by priests or chiefs called jarls.
     
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Nope - they used it for helmets because it was easier to work and ornament.. - their important equipment such as Gladius, Spatha Cavalry swords, Javelin blades and arrow heads were made of iron
     
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  12. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    I am not sure that would work. Iron may not be superior to bronze on a case-by-case basis, but it is - as mentioned - much cheaper. Which means that iron-using civilization would in fact have much easier time establishing an empire.

    EDIT:
    I was comparing it mostly to cast iron. Casting iron and casting bronze is not that different, once you can melt them. Of course, bronze does have lower melting point, about half that of steel, so that might be the answer why.
     
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  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    But bronze appears more ornate and it is also softer to tool after casting
     
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  14. Viserion

    Viserion Senior Member

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    Iron is far rarer in this world.
     
  15. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    If it is rarer than implements for bronze, then you may need to change biological makeup of living beings too - copper instead of iron in haemoglobin, for example.
     
  16. Viserion

    Viserion Senior Member

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    Well, I was thinking that most iron deposits are in other lands (where humanity came from), and the lack is specific to the region.
     
  17. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    So copper and tin are plentiful, but the iron rich deposits are everywhere else?
    Strange.
    Maybe they could reuse and learn to recycle iron and steel that they can recover
    from a battle? It would make sense to make the best of what you can scavenge
    in terms of technological advancements.
    Or they could ally and trade with a nation that can supply and teach them how
    to work iron ore? Trade is always an option, even among some parties that don't
    exactly stand on steady ground most of the time.
    Just a couple of things to consider. :)
     
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  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    maybe - as was common in bronze age civilization , iron ore is plentiful but they don't have the technology to do anything with it
     
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  19. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    That wouldn't really work, unless there are absolutely no metals in the region. And even then it would be possible to trade. So I think that what @big soft moose said is the most likely scenario: civilization simply has not advanced beyond bronze. So you would have rich people (chiefs ect.) buying iron weapons from abroad, while their mooks/troops use native bronze products.
     
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