1. Luxri

    Luxri Member

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    How do you describe dialects in a fantasy setting?

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Luxri, Feb 24, 2020.

    How would you describe how a dialect sounds in a world that isn't like our own? For example, a northern dialect can be compared to a Norweigan dialect in a literary work based on our world. But in a fantasy world, we don't have this luxury. We have to assign our own geographical regions for our own dialects, so how would you even describe it? How do you describe how a dialect sounds when there is nothing you can compare it to?
     
  2. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Describe the characteristics of the dialect. Rolled consonants, elongated vowels, guttural stops.
     
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  3. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    The issue in play is a lack of any contextual grounding for the comparison. You rightly acknowledge that it would be both anachronistic and also narrative intrusion to have your Fantasy story reference real-world concepts that do not exist within the history of the narrative, so you have to construct the other side of the comparison as well.

    Say that the citizens of Slobiblob share a border with those of Noodgingrad. Their languages are mutually intelligible, mostly just dialectal differences. Perhaps the Slobiblobers tend to elide the ends of their words, clipping them short (a very common linguistic feature), much more so than the fussy denizens of Noodgingrad. That would be a thing to note, the clipped pace. Or perhaps at some point along the linguistic timeline, those of Noodgingrad started borrowing words from their other neighbor, Nafflandia, where they speak a different language altogether. I'm sure those of Slobiblob will have something to say about all those suspicious loan words. I mean, yes, they understand them too, but to actually use Nafflandese... never, how gauche. The clipped manner in which Slobiblobers speak gives rise to a cultural affinity for quick, dry wit, delivered tersely and without fanfare. Noodgingraders, on the other hand, with their preference for a more precise delivery, lean into more elaborate humor, dependant on subtle shades of meaning and double entendre. Noodgingraders look down on Slobiblob humor as lowbrow and unsophisticated. Slobiblobers roll a snide eye at the Noodgingrader's smug, heavy-handed delivery.

    Linguistic elements now give rise to cultural features and your story gains depth.

    When it comes to accents and dialects - and I can't stress this enough - everyone believes him/herself to have a flat accent, a "no accent", because everyone uses themselves and their little neck of the linguistic woods as the "point zero" on the accent scale. We all do this. Every single last one of us. Other people have accents. Never we ourselves. This simple, universal fact is the reason we need a thing against which to compare; else, there's no logical reason to even have anyone, least of all the narrator, mention it.

    ETA: And you'd be surprised what other people hear in our respective accents. As an American, other native speakers of English tend to lean into the rhotic nature of North American English when they describe it. We pronounce all of our R's no matter where they show up in a word. Rhotacism creates a rounder, more closed cavity within the mouth that affects the vowels prior to the R, altering the resonance, amplifying them. This is a large part of "American loudness" other people hear.

    But, when I lived in Berlin, Germany, and was finally able to go to the East side (it was back when there was an East side) the East Berliners who I befriended told me that what they heard in the sound of my speech was all the N's, not the R's or what R's do to vowels, even though most variants of German are also described as non-rhotic. The volume level at which German is typically spoken makes even American English sound meek. To them, it was all the N's.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  4. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I believe this is true to an extent, but some people definitely know they have an accent and accentuate it sometimes to emphasize their difference from 'others', sometimes for humorous or charming effect. I'm thinking of Texans or Minnesotans (like in the movie Fargo for instance, but that was emphasized for humorous effect). Or, who's that chick on Modern Family? From South America? Sophia Vergara, or for the old-schoolers Charo. Of course, they're foreigners in our country so they're doing it largely to stand out and they know it's kinda sexy and funny at the same time. When they're back home they probably make fun of our accents.

    I saw a show once on the Learning Channel or somewhere about dialects, and they asked lots of people from all around America to point on a map to where they think the people have no accent. Every one of them, no matter where they lived, pointed to the center of America. Of course, even here (I live in Illinois) we have plenty who have that universal hick accent that always sounds southern.
     
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  5. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    Use language that describes specific phenoms, pitch and inflection. I'm no expert. There are some great videos by linguistics experts and accent coaches on YouTube. They'll have better descriptions than this, but for a Scandinavian sound, you might use words like "singsong" and note that their pitch rises and falls like the "umpa" of a polka. I don't suppose they'd know what a polka is in that world either, but you see what I mean, I'm sure.

    ETA: Lots of stuff out there like this:

     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  6. Luxri

    Luxri Member

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    I guess I'm gonna go learn some stuff about linguistics again if I want to fully grasp how to describe a dialect in a text-based format. For example, I recognize many of the terms you use above, like rolled consonants, elongated vowels, and guttural stops. I've heard of them but I actually don't really know what any of them are.
     
  7. Luxri

    Luxri Member

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    Thank you for all the great information. I'll definitely look more into dialects and accents and how to portray them correctly. Now I just want to know how to go about writing dialogue using the dialect. A few authors I follow on Youtube loathe the use of dialects in dialogue, according to them it just looks wrong. How would you portray a dialect in a story? Would you describe it and then write the speech in proper grammatical english, or would you write it as the character would actually sound like if you heard them speak.
     
  8. Luxri

    Luxri Member

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    Thank you for the info, friend.
     
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  9. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    First and foremost, I agree with the people who think you should not torture the spelling of the dialogue to try to invoke an accent. Others are going to come and disagree with me. That's fine. We're all allowed to have our opinions.

    But yes, If'n I war to git'ntu a stary where somone's accent is git'n the roil treatment in the dahlog, I'm out. I will not read that. Someone will, but not me.

    I have a degree in applied linguistics, and still, even with that, my advice is that if you keep the references internal to the story, you don't have to worry about all that linguistic vocabulary and how to technically describe phoneme trends, the way voiced consonants typically transform into unvoiced versions when they are terminal to a word, blah, blah, very boring technical stuff, blah, blah.

    More than how to describe this, you need to decide where and why you're going to describe it and how it fits into your story. If there are two characters from the same town, same region, same country, same language, same age, there's zero reason for the topic to even come up.

    What you need is a reason for it to happen. You need a Slobiblober to have a conversation with a Noodgingrader*. You need to create a moment where the delivery of the information is part of the context of the scene. When you have that, the characters and their interpersonal engagement will have much to say about how the conversation comes up and is deployed, be it through dialogue or through the narrative.

    * It doesn't have to be a conversation between two people. That's just an example. My point is, there needs to be a moment where it makes sense to come up.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
  10. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    Supposedly, the "neutral" accent they teach in broadcasting and whatnot is midwestern. That's a big area though, and the farther North you go, the more you hear that Fargo (the movie) or stereotype Canadian creep in. My aunt, who grew up in Idaho and spent part of her teens in Texas before living the rest of her life in Illinois, definitely took it on over the years. She almost sounds to me like the old SNL "Da Bears" sketch. It's not even that thick, but it's glaring to a Texas ear.

    You make an interesting point about the "hick" factor. I think most regions have at least two accents (Several, if you get into culturally specific accents, obviously.) No matter where you go though, there's a backwoods accent in stark contrast to the semi-neutral. It's certainly true here, and it's very region specific. I can pick out a West Texas accent from a southern lineup in a second. It's a special blend of drawl and twang you don't find in the rest of the south. West Texas and Georgia accents are as different as Boston and Brooklyn. (Huh. I didn't do this on purpose, but Boston and Brooklyn are the names of two girls in my kid's Kindergarten class. :))
    I agree. That's a mess. the furthest you can take that without annoying the reader is maybe droppin' your "G's" and, only if you really need to, choosing key, still easy to read word like "your" to "yer."

    Alternatively, you could do what many authors do. Stephen king is a good example:
    He had a thick New England accent. When he said "over yonder," it came out "ahva yahnda."
    Then he continues to write in normal English and assumes that you have the accent in your head now.
     
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  11. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It's also largely true that even in the deep south city dwellers have much less of a 'country' accent than the rural folk.

    That "Beahs' thing is Chicago, which is far northern Illinois. I'm at the opposite end—you know, that part where nobody actually has an accent (kidding...)

    Oh, and similar to the hick accent, I think every region of the US has people with the valley girl (or Keanu Reeves surfer-dude) accent. Probaly picked up form a lot of movies and TV and originally done just because it's fun. I remember in the 80's when that started spreading like wildfire around here after Moon Unit Zappa did the Valley Girl song (which I think was form the movie of the same name?)
     
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  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I do occasionally wonder if there are any breedy families left in the U.S. who still attempt to affect the Mid-Atlantic Accent. (Old-time Hollywood, Katherine Hepburn, William F. Buckley Jr.)
     
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  13. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    I dated a girl who's dad appeared to be doing a Katherine Hepburn impression with a touch of Truman Capote. Though if you meant the word "breedy" the way I think you did, he wouldn't entirely count. He lived in West Texas all his life, and I knew his mother. It was all a put-on. I've never met a more affected human in my life.

    ETA: Wait, I know what you meant by breedy now. He wasn't, but he pretended to be and talked about the middle class with disdain even though he was broke. It was very Grey Gardens around that place.
     
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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    IMo its pretty much like describing accents in the real world.. if i tell you that my character has a brummie accent that doesnt mean much to a reader from America, France, Australia or wherever who's never been to brum. On the otherhand If I say he had "one of those slow brummie accents that could have made you think he was stupid, but didn't" I've defined the accent for next time i mention it even if you've never been to birmingham.

    in fantasy i could just as easily say "he had one of those slow slobilob accents that could have made bob think he was stupid if he hadn't seen the man's eyes" then ive just defined it for anyone who's never been to slobibob... and ive let any english readers know that the people in slobibob sound like they're from birmingham without using the words
     
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  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Not around here. Honestly I've never heard it in real life, only old movies and TV shows. A few years ago I got curious about that accent and where it came from, I couldn't place it, and had to do a bunch of googling to discover what it was. Turns out to be kind of a mix of English (I mean British English) and a New England accent piut on by people who want sound sound important or authoritative. And a lot of announcers etc.

    Then there's Vincent Price. Completely made up accent, he's born and bred in the US if I remember right, and created the accent himself for his movie persona.
     
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  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Its key component is that it is non-rhotic, but not in the New Englandie, Bostonian, nasal sort of way where "pahk the kah" (park the car) gets delivered through the nose. Mid-Atlantic demands that the non-rhotic deployment be kept firmly in the chest.
     
  17. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I like the accent Stewie has in Family Guy.
     
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