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  1. DuhAppleBaby

    DuhAppleBaby New Member

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    What's the subtle difference?

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by DuhAppleBaby, Feb 27, 2020.

    "Looking at me, he rolled his eyes."

    v.s.

    "He looked at me and rolled his eyes."

    I'm trying to learn sentence structure and when to use a specific sentence type.
     
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  2. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    Let me take a shot at explaining the difference. Keep in mind I’m the grasshopper on this forum and I’m learning new stuff every day.
    BTW welcome to the forum.

    Looking at me, he rolled his eyes...is a great example of past progressive tense, which in a nutshell says all of it is ongoing. By the looking while rolling his eyes.
    He looked at me and rolled his eyes are separated incidences divided by the conjunction, ‘and.’
     
  3. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    1) "Looking at me, he rolled his eyes."
    2) "He looked at me and rolled his eyes."
    The first line is emphasizing [he]. The opening phrase [looking at me] is describing [he] directly. It's not a verb in any way. (It used to be, but now it's a participle. I'd better not talk about those because that's a big subject.)

    The first line's "actions" happen simultaneously, but really, only [rolled] is an action. [Looking] feels like an action, but it isn't. (It's a participle heading an adjectival participle phrase. Participles need being verbs to become verbs again.) That's why [looking] and [rolled] are able to easily occur at once. Because so much of the line is aimed at the actor, [he] has importance.

    The second line is emphasizing the actions. First one action happens and then the other. So the line is more kinetic while it's also progressing through time. If you consider it, the first line happens in one instant like a snapshot; the second happens more like a movie.

    Both lines have different rhythms.
    The comma in first creates a pause that can carry tension. Though this line isn't using it. (It really doesn't have to, but it can.)
    The second line doesn't allow that break (re: caesura). It's harder for that line to carry tension, but easier for it to speed to its point. Its quickness is its strength.

    Now I don't believe any structure should be off limits. They all have their uses in different situations. But BEWARE: Opening -ing phrases are dangerously overused. They shouldn't be avoided, but don't rely on them. I have even seen publishers warn about introductory -ing phrases specifically. They get that sick of seeing them in the submissions. New writers just love them too much.

    Normally I would give you an example of a prose atrocity that overuses -ing phrases, but I'm trying not to type too much! haha
    I can add one later if you want to be annoyed by it. I know exactly the book to use. While reading it, I almost threw my Kindle across a field.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
  4. N.Scott

    N.Scott Active Member

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    It seems to me, the first line didn't really work, did it?
     
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  5. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Yeah, I'd agree. "Looks" are usually redundant. If I were editing, this would be a lot more to the point:

    "He rolled his eyes at me."​

    Because the "look" is implied and nothing's really lost. Looks, glances, etc. are usually pretty empty actions. They can say a lot, but they usually don't and so they're best avoided, though they can be useful in moving the focus from characters to setting. And if I wanted tension, I'd build it up a lot more with different actions and probably a longer phrase after the comma too. But, you know, it's just an example line. I'm just showing how it connects.

    Still motionless upon his lush hospice bed, he parted his lips and spoke a single word: "Rosebud."
    That one has a matching structure. The opening phrase describes [he] again (though it's not a participle phrase this time, it's still adjectival). There's more tension because of the actions. Anyway, that's how that introductory phrase could be used.

    Anyway, I find these things really interesting. Both of those lines are grammatically perfect, so you're not even really thinking about proper grammar. You're trying to shape the sentence so that it fits in the paragraph while having clarity and impact. It's purely about style. That's why I think the OP's question is so good. There's a profound difference between those two simple lines, but at first sight, it's not obvious what it is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
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  6. N.Scott

    N.Scott Active Member

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    I want to ask if is it okay to write like the first line. What I mean is, it's kinda difficult to look at somebody while rolling their eyes(maybe rolling just one eye)? As you said earlier the structure indicates it happened simultaneously, so... I am not sure. Is this a silly question?
     
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  7. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    No, you're right. A lot of people use -ing phrases like they were a separate action, but really they always express a state of being. They're describing how the actor is in one instant, and so they happen with the main verb in time. And sometimes that's impossible. Whenever you use them, make sure that they can be done at the same time. There's all kinds of fails with this:

    Putting on his shoes, he headed out the door.​

    That would be an swing-and-a-miss example. The author (me, sadly) thinks that the actor put on the shoes first because that phrase is read first, but really the actor is in a state of "putting shoes on" even as he's leaving the house. There's nowhere to put that phrase to fix it either. You have to get rid of that -ing structure, or at least qualify it:

    After putting on his shoes, he headed out the door.
    That little change squares it away. Now [after] heads an introductory preposition, [putting on his shoes] becomes a gerund phrase, and they act adverbially, changing the "when" of [headed]. Honestly, you don't have to fight the grammar too much. It only barely matters what the parts are called. Just make sure that they're logically possible in the sentence. Very little of writing/revising is about grammar. It's more about concise and effective style.

    For the OP question, you just have to use those original sentences as harmless examples. You're seeing other issues with the wording. But that's a good thing too.

    (Edit: -ing phrases (present participle phrases) are almost always adjectival, but they can be adverbial. Just in case someone comes in with an aside. They're usually used as adjectives, so assume that's what a normal one is up to.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  8. N.Scott

    N.Scott Active Member

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    @Seven Crowns, That is clearly explained. Thank you!:agreed:
     
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  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I really need to work on my grammar. I remember these words from grade school, like Participle and Adjective and Preposition, but these days I don't really know what they mean. Did I understand them then? I think so. I used to get good grades in English. But I haven't heard or thought about them in decades.

    I have the Gregg Reference Manual, which is proper grammar for business, and whenever I get motivated to browse through it it's extremely enlightening, but I wouldn't exactly call it a page turner. More like "Ah crap, I guess I should look at another page today."
     
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  10. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Are you writing comedy?
     
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  11. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    What about..

    He looked at me, rolling his eyes like I wasn't supposed to be here.

    Or something like that? I think there is more fun that can be had within the confines of each sentence we write.
     
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  12. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    You're right, the rolling happens while looking at the speaker. So unless the speaker is towering over the eye-roller, or they're doing a forward roll or some other weird thing, it's not really happening as written. The second sentence, "He looked at me and rolled his eyes", doesn't imply that they're done at the same time, so I think that's the format you should go for.
     
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  13. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I absolutely hear you. I am totally useless at naming the parts of grammatical speech. I mean, I know noun, verb, adjective, adverb, preposition and ...well, there must be some other stuff as well. I hated studying grammar, and I have a degree in English. However, I also think my grammatical usage is pretty good most of the time.

    Osmosis. Never underrate osmosis as a learning process!
     
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  14. Thundair

    Thundair Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, 'looking' is no longer a verb but a participle (an adjective made from a verb) as it is a state of being and not action.
     
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  15. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    If you're asking what the difference is in what actually occurs, the first happens simultaneously (more or less.) Eye contact is broken, but the action occurs while looking (which may or may not have already been happening before the sentence began.) In the second, there is a succession of events. In other words, the second denotes a definite primary action in turning to look followed by the eye roll. The first could be stretched into "While looking at me, he proceeded to roll his eyes." The second would extend into "He looked at me, and then he rolled his eyes."
     
  16. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    I didn't get a chance to read everyone's answer. I think I'm going to bed in a minute. My idea's of sentence structure are more about what I want to emphasize and what tone do I want to establish. The rest of it ... clauses and such are a bit muddled.
    So the mc is noting that someone is looking at him and rolling his eyes.
    But if the mc is looking at this person does it need to be established that he looked back. Do we need look - does it need to be emphasized. And lets say that it does - Looking at me, he rolled his eyes has a sense of simultaneous action whereas He looked at me and - has a sense of a beat. For me the surrounding paragraph usually helps me sort out what sentence works best as some can sound terrible on their own and be just peachy in their paragraph.
     
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  17. Cope Acetic

    Cope Acetic Member

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    Strictly speaking, the first uses a participle, the second doesn't.

    @Thundair has the most concise explanation: the participle suggests the looking is simply something "he" is doing, a state of being, the second sentence explicates that the looking preceded the rolling.

    The participle does feel like a simultaneous thing, but that's not its purpose. It suggests that the participle verb is a companion to another action or thing in the same sentence, a way of providing further context. There's no reason I can see to avoid it to mitigate confusion about the looking happening before or at the same time as the rolling. I doubt such confusion would ever exist.

    This is purely a stylistic choice, and I can't agree that there's any reason to avoid participles in introductory phrases. Anything can be overused. Just don't overuse it.
     
  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Well, during my self-isolation (enforced) I discovered I actually do have an old used copy of Strunk & White that I totally forgot I had bought years ago. It has no dust jacket and all the pages are warped, but it's completely readable and I've now read through it once. At this point it becomes a trusty desktop companion and reference book.

    That Gregg Reference Manual is a massive tome; a phone book compared to the slim "Little Book" as it's called. It's extremely off-putting to consider cracking open that monstrosity, most of which is concerned with business and office protocols anyway, but it's actually a pleasant experience digging into the Elements of Style.

    Now perhaps my grammar will improve through that osmosis Jannert mentioned. I have to say, my eyes still glaze over when I encounter the words like Participle or Gerund. It seems I can understand the examples without needing to know all the arcane grammar-school skullduggery. I was going to write something about that thing we had to do where you dissect sentences into their constituent parts, but I can't remember the name of it. Oh well, that would be one of the things you don't need to remember, as long as you can do it decently enough.
     

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