1. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    Battle Wagons in army and army organization

    Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by Aldarion, Feb 26, 2020.

    What was proportion of battle wagons in a typical Tabor army, as used by Hussites and Janos Hunyadi? Offensively, wagons were often used to protect the flanks of infantry after cavalry launched its charge, which I imagine did not require large numbers. On the other hand, wagons were defensively used to build a wagenburg, which may or may not indicate significant number of battle wagons, depending on wether wagons carrying supplies were used to build the burg or not. Hunyadi had 600 war wagons during 1443-1444 long campaign, but I have found no information about his army in battles of 1442.

    Also, would it be better to have legion as a combined-arms force or a specialist force? Or mix of two options? I imagine latter would be better for a large-scale battle, and former when a legion has to operate on its own - but OTOH legion already is a significant force in context of low-level warfare, for which maybe combined-arms cohort may be better; yet in large-scale war it may be insufficient.

    This are my army organization options as it stands right now:
    • heavy cavalry lance: 2 heavy lancers (cataphractii), 2 mounted crossbowmen (also serve as squires), 1 page (noncombatant)

    • light cavalry lance: 2 light lancers (equites), 2 light horse archers, 1 page (javelinman)

    • heavy cavalry decuria: 4 heavy lancers (cataphractii), 4 mounted crossbowmen, 2 noncombatant pages

    • light cavalry decuria: 4 light lancers (equites), 4 horse archers, 2 pages

    • heavy infantry decuria: 1 pavise carrier (clipeati), 3 heavy infantry (armati), 4 crossbowmen, 2 non-combatants

    • light infantry decuria: 4 light crossbowmen, 4 slingers, 2 non-combatant pages (carry reserve crossbows and bolts)

    • 1 wagon cart per 20 / 50 / 160 soldiers ???

    • centuria: 10 decurias (heavy infantry) / 2 tourmae

    • tourma: 5 decurias (light infantry, cavalry)

    • manipulus: 2 centuriae / tourmae

    • cohors
      • heavy infantry cohort: 10 centurias (100 clipeati, 300 armati, 400 crossbowmen, 200 pages) – 800 combatants + 200 support

      • light infantry cohort: 5 maniples (200 l crossbowmen, 200 slingers, 100 pages) – 400 combatants + 100 support

      • heavy cavalry cohort: 5 maniples (200 cataphractii, 200 mounted crossbowmen, 100 pages) – 400 combatants + 100 support

      • light cavalry cohort: 5 maniples (200 equitae, 200 horse archers, 100 pages) – 400 combatants + 100 support
    • combined-arms legion (legio armatis)
      • 4 heavy infantry cohorts (400 clipeati, 1 200 armati, 1 600 crossbowmen, 800 pages) – 3 200 combatants + 800 support

      • 4 heavy cavalry cohorts (800 cataphractii, 800 mounted crossbowmen, 400 pages) – 1 600 combatants + 400 support

      • total: 4 800 combatants, 1 200 support

      • ??? battle wagons (X armati, X crossbowmen, X drivers)

      • total: X combatants, X support
    • mounted infantry legion (legio armatis equitatuum)
      • 4 heavy infantry cohorts (400 clipeati, 1 200 armati, 1 600 crossbowmen, 800 pages) – 3 200 combatants + 800 support

      • 4 heavy cavalry cohorts (800 cataphractii, 800 mounted crossbowmen, 400 pages) – 1 600 combatants + 400 support

      • total: 4 800 combatants, 1 200 support

      • NO battle wagons
    • heavy cavalry legion (legio cataphractorum)
      • 4 heavy cavalry cohorts (800 cataphractii, 800 mounted crossbowmen, 400 pages) – 1 600 combatants + 400 support

      • 2 light cavalry cohorts (400 equitae, 400 horse archers, 200 pages) – 800 combatants + 200 support

      • total: 2 400 combatants, 600 support
    • light cavalry legion (legio equitae)
      • 8 light cavalry cohorts (1 600 equitae, 1 600 horse archers, 800 pages)

      • total: 3 200 combatants, 800 support
    • infantry legion (legio pedites)
      • 8 heavy infantry cohorts (800 clipeati, 2 400 armati, 3 200 crossbowmen, 1 600 pages) – 6 400 combatants, 1 600 support

      • 1 light cavalry cohort (200 equitae, 200 horse archers, 100 pages) – 400 combatants + 100 support

      • total: 6 800 combatants, 1 700 support
    • field army
      • 12 heavy infantry cohorts required for infantry square = 3 combined-arms legions = 14 400 combatants, 3 600 support (18 000 total) + battle wagons
    I managed to find these, but that is hardly sufficient, especially as I need Google Translate for a second link:
    http://www.warfareeast.co.uk/main/Hungarian_Battles.htm
    https://mek.oszk.hu/10600/10604/10604.htm
     
  2. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Havent we already had this discussion before? - it feels very familiar
     
  3. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    We did, about general utility of battle wagons themselves. But that was about whether to use wagons or not, and I have made my decision on that. What I wrote here are the modifications I have made on the basis of that discussion - but the system honestly seems a little too complex.
     
  4. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    The thing to bear in mind is that this is fiction - your reader doesn't care about all this detail, they care about the story
     
    Azuresun likes this.
  5. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    I think it just looks complex when it's all written out. When you really think about it, what do you have? Heavy/light infantry, heavy/light cavalry in various unit hierarchies.
     
    Aldarion likes this.
  6. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    It looks to me like you're doing research on military history for a game setting, rather than writing a story.
     
  7. Aldarion

    Aldarion Active Member

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    It is going to be military fantasy. Which means that military structures are going to shape the story, to an extent.

    Although I definitely wouldn't be against turning it into tabletop strategy at some point, now that I think about it...
     
  8. Rich D

    Rich D New Member

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    Yes, this.
     

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