The Point of View questions thread

Discussion in 'Point of View, and Voice' started by SB108, Jul 8, 2007.

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  1. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    seems fine to me
     
  2. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    I will make not more than three, and usually just two POV shifts per chapter. The shifts are justified by a scene shift to a different location, where the original POV is not present. It should be offset by at least a double paragraph. Some authors also include some sort of symbol, such as three asterisks to let the reader know that the scene has shifted. Make sure in the first few sentences of the new scene identify the scene, and in the first few paragraphs the new POV should introduce him/herself. Sort of "Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Harry was feeding the chickens."

    I just beta read a spy thriller by a well-published author. He often did five or more scene shifts in a single chapter, sometimes just for two or three paragraphs, hopping around the world from a pipeline in Belarus, to Putin's office in Moscow, to an intelligence op center in the US, to a ship in the Suez Canal. I found it quite choppy at first, but once I got into it, it supported his story quite well, and really upped the pace. Not recommended for the first timer though!
     
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  3. Adam Bolander

    Adam Bolander Senior Member

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    If you have to change POV in the middle of a chapter, what's the best and least jarring way to do it?
     
  4. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    If I were to do this, a scene break with a nice little line. But in truth, I only ever change POV at chapter boundaries.
     
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  5. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Agree--scene break.

    I've seen it done with no break, but unless you have a particular reason for doing that, I would use break.
     
  6. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    I would go with numbers or a symbol, but even a skipped line is enough in most books, as long as you're consistent. I just read Let Me In, which had a ton of POV changes, and he just used line skips and mentioned the name of the character in the first line (which is key, of course.)
     
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  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ^ @Rzero Good book and I like both film versions. The book explains what was only hinted at in the films, and I sort of wanted to see the angry zombie rampaging everywhere but alas, neither movie included it (probably wisely).
     
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  8. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    I'm going to assume that you actually want an answer. Of course you can change viewpoints at section breaks or chapter breaks, but the question was how to do it mid stride. Generally speaking, you would likely use the baton technique. In other words, some device informs the reader that we have passed off viewpoint. That can be as simple as a statement after a paragraph break. After all, if the need exists to make that shift, clarity is the only remaining concern.

    Note the two criteria. One, you are willing to take the hit associated with any shift in view because the need to move along with someone else is dire. Two, you are interested in not confusing the reader by head hopping, so you take care to INFORM them, somehow, that this is what is going on. It can be a direct statement, such as: John was not buying any of Mary's crap. What did she know? The whole deal with this merger was...blah, blah, blah.

    But, on to the baton technique, which is likely better. In baton you find a device. I did this once by having my MC and chapter viewpoint get up from a table in a bar and walk out the door. The only male in the bar instantly became the view. Being quick to point that out is a plus. In this case, the door to the building was the baton:

    “Whoa, that’s sudden. What’s up with your sister?” Andy watched the door close behind Lilly.

    In another book I had 3 separate views in chapter one, followed by my MC being sole view for the next 90,000 words. In each case, the view was murdered by the next view, so the physical event causing the previous view's demise became the baton. Thusly I drove sympathy to the MC and chapter 2 onward view.

    In summary, the baton technique occurs whenever an action or device physically moves a viewpoint from one person to the next.
     
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  9. JTedders92

    JTedders92 New Member

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    Hey all,

    I was wondering on what your opinions are on a point of view change for a small portion of the story?

    My work in progress follows Nathan (in 3rd person). I was just thinking of doing a couple paragraphs at the end of the chapter about the party after Nathan had left. It would simply be following two of the side characters.

    Thanks for any thoughts and advice.
     
  10. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    If I'm writing a chapter and I wrap up a scene, but it's too short to end the chapter, can I switch POV within the chapter to write the next scene? Is this a big no-no, or is it ok occasionally? This will only make it the second time I've done it in the entire novel.
    I'm writing 3rd person omniscient, but I stick pretty close to MC for about 90% of the book, with only a handful of chapters/scenes in another character's head.
     
  11. HarrySTruman

    HarrySTruman New Member

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    You're the boss, it's totally legal if you can make it work! :) In my writing, I will occasionally jump to another POV within a chapter in situations like that, but only rarely and only if the scene I'm starting relates directly to the one just concluded.

    The fact that you're conscious of how often you switch, and that you're not jumping to other POVs willy-nilly, indicates that you'll be careful about it.

    Or you could just make it a short chapter and start the next one right there.
     
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  12. GraceLikePain

    GraceLikePain Senior Member

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    It's not technically a no-no. I simply hate it. Is there a rationale behind this emotion? Maybe. I dunno. I just do.

    Honestly I recommend a chapter switch. Sometimes a needlessly short chapter catches the reader's attention and makes a bigger point than it would otherwise.
     
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  13. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    The simple answer is yes, use a double space between characters,
    unless you can head hop in 3rd POV smoothly like Clive Barker
    does in The Hellbound Heart.
     
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  14. Richach

    Richach Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    The main thing is the reader needs to trust you. If you start chopping and changing then you run the risk readers may start bailing out. Different readers have different tolerances. Remember you control the reader's immersion, the pace and when they can rest etc.

    I think you are right to say that p.o.v changes can happen occasionally within a chapter but it must be done correctly as others have said. You have to make it clear that the previous scene/action has ended. This can be done in several ways. I do think the best way is by starting a new chapter.

    Also there is no law against having a short chapter either. I know Stephen King does this and if anything it made me trust him more. These are oppurtunities to show you know what you are doing - or not!

    If you are at first draft, make sure you flag up such p.o.v changes clearly so when you come to editing you don't miss it. Things like this can really trip you up.
     
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  15. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    To add to other voices, if you jump POV try to make it unobtrusive.

    I.e. let your characters be together at the end of scene 1, or use a common object/event to tie those POVs together. Like POV1 sees a mountain with a prominent tower from one hillside (the tower having some significant meaning for POV1), and then switching to POV2 at the other side of the mountain with the tower having a different meaning for POV2.
     
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  16. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, you're fine. Use the double space like @Cave Troll said. It's very common, particularly in fantasy.
     
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  17. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    ...Then you shouldn't really have proper character perspectives to switch between in the first place: The story is told from the perspective of the narrator. Not having to be restricted to the perspective of any given character is sorta the whole point of Omniscient.

    If you were writing Third Person Limited, what you describe would be considered a perspective error or a stylistic faux pas. In Omniscient it's just the narrator turning his attention to a different character. I've been trying to switch to Omniscient myself, specifically so I can get away with this sort of thing.
     
  18. Larro

    Larro Member

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    I've done the same thing in one of my chapters. Also 3rd person omniscient. Skipped a couple of lines as pps said as it's a scene change. The chapter would have been way too short otherwise and I think it reads fine (emphasis on "I think" ;)).
     
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  19. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Or maybe put an in-chapter division thingamabob?

     
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  20. Seiya

    Seiya Member

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    Hi there,
    First post for a first novel I'm looking to write as a hobby, maybe if it's any good I'll try and release it for free or something.
    Anyways, regarding the story I have in mind I have the prologue introducing the protagonist somewhat (years before), then I switch to the POV of a minor named character in the first chapter. Eventually the protag and minor character interact a bit and then from chapter 2 onwards the minor character is never seen again (or at the least very unlikely consider the genre I'm going for).
    It got me thinking then if we really should have a switch of POV to a character we won't see again?
    I wanted a change of view because I wanted someone seeing the main character from the outside and of course it helps to add a bit more exposition for protag but the idea of naming a few people that we'll never see again feels off?
    Opinions anyone?
    Thanks.
     
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  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Sure, it's fine as a way of introducing the reader into the story gradually, before bringing in your protag (aside from the prologue). I'm reminded of the way a lot of Doc Savage stories were written—first we'd see things through the eyes of an extra, maybe a witness to the first murder or whatever, because the protag wasn't involved yet. Maybe even the first victim. And then cut to New York, secret top floor of the Empire State Building, where Doc discovers what's happened and decides to pursue the matter.
     
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  22. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    It's another one of those things which can work or fail, depending on circumstances. I'd say just go ahead and write it as you've envisioned it, and see how it turns out. If, after you've finished, either you or your beta readers think that losing the initial POV character hinders the story, you can rethink that approach.

    I know myself, if a character seems important at the start of a story, and then is never mentioned again, I will feel a bit on edge about it. I'll have it in the back of my mind that this character will re-appear. When he/she doesn't, my reaction is ''well, what happened to..."

    The secret, maybe, is to make the POV character's role clear (via tone or name.) Maybe don't name the POV character at all, but just refer to that character by his or her job, or position. The student, the maid, the dog-walker, the waiter, the judge, the policeman, the teacher, the bartender, etc. That helps the reader know that the character is just passing through and won't figure in the story from now on.

    This is another instance where a Prologue can be useful. People expect, when they see "Prologue" as a chapter heading, that the chapter will be different from the rest of the story in some way. So if you're showing how the progagonist is generally seen by others, or are showing something from the protagonist's past that is the basis for the story, then you can easily get away with using a narrator/POV character in a Prologue, whom we never see again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  23. Dante Dases

    Dante Dases Contributor Contributor

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    Seconded. This is a good use of a prologue, and advice I'd follow. Think about how other writers have approached this problem: GRRM is a good example; James S.A. Corey another.
     
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  24. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    You have surely got other characters who DO come back into the book and play a major role, whom you could use for the same purpose? But no, you really shouldn't have a POV of a character who is never seen again. Also, whoever appears in Chapter 1 will tend to be assumed by the readers that that character is the main character - if this "main character" turns out to be so minor that he never appears again after one chapter? You're looking at losing a lot of readers here.

    Don't change POVs willy-nilly. When you use a character as a POV character, that is very intimate and you're literally letting the reader into that character's head - two things: firstly, why waste my time inside the head of someone who doesn't matter? And secondly, you've now got the readers emotionally invested in a character they will never see again and you're asking them to make a new emotional connection with the true main character.

    Readers are impatient. If they've spent time investing in your characters and you've got them emotionally hooked enough with that character to keep reading, you want to keep that character preferably. You don't want to ask the reader to make a second emotional investment to a new character when they're still at the beginning of the book and could not care less about your story at that moment. They only know the character you've introduced them to, and that's the character they will be interested in. Do you see what I'm saying? It's hard enough getting a reader to care about one character - you don't need to then ask the reader to care again about someone else almost right away.

    TL;DR - Don't do it!

    ETA: Readers also like continuity. Avoid changing POVs at all if it doesn't serve a very concrete story purpose. Also, POV characters should normally get a character arc. Minor characters should, by and large, not have POV chapters. I do understand very occasionally they might take a scene, but not entire chapters.
     
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  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I definitely agree that you shouldn't invest the readers in the character, or lead them to believe it might be the MC. Jannert mentioned ways of doing this, but here's my own take on it:

    I wouldn't use a deep POV, I'd keep it external, probably 3rd Person Objective, the 'camera' floating along behind the character and taking 'documentary style' footage of what happens near or to him/her.

    And I would also write it in such a way that it's clear this isn't an important character. In the Doc Savage stories I mentioned, which drift between mysteries and crimebusters, it would be done something like this: "John Thrimblemartin spent the last afternoon of his life organizing his stamp collection. One of the decades-old albums was beginning to come apart, so he walked to the hobby shop to buy a new one, but along the way he witnessed the final event he would ever see..."

    I mean, that's pretty over the top, but I just mean it as a vague idea of how to approach it. I think it would work well in a crime or mystery type of story, because sometimes we need to see an event that happens far from the protagonist, who isn't even involved yet, and it's more powerful if it's attached to a human witness or victim.
     
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