1. davcha

    davcha Banned

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    Experimenting with socio/psychopath

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by davcha, Sep 1, 2020.

    Sometimes the qualities of a character, pushed to the extreme, become defects.
    Several of my characters work this way. For example, a Templar who has an unwavering - and blind - faith and ends up confusing justice and revenge.

    Still, I want to experience the opposite: a flaw that becomes a quality.
    I have a character who could easily be a sociopath (or even a psychopath) and I was wondering how to use his nature in a positive way, without praising his sociopathy.
     
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  2. Lawless

    Lawless Active Member

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    His thinking isn't limited by the moral scruples most people have. Therefore, he can come up with original ideas most people can't, and actually carry them out. Thanks to that, he can do things like catch very dangerous criminals more efficiently.
     
  3. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    From my recollection of a psychology course I took in college, "psychopath" is an obsolete term for the condition. "Sociopathy" is the accepted term. And it seems to be instilled in people at a very early age, or at least manifests itself early. (And in rare cases, it's cultivated in a culture; there was a discussion about a tribe that constructed its child education to produce nothing but sociopaths through affection denial, random punishment and so on.) I'm not sure that acquiring a sociopathic mindset would be accurate.

    As for making use of the condition in a positive way, the only situation I can envision is a sort of social triage, where a decision is made without regard to whether the decider has some sort of emotional stake in the result.
     
  4. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    There are some books about that. The Wisdom of Psychopaths, I believe goes into the common characteristics of psychopathy and how those same characteristics can be used it good ways. It's all a bit dramatic when it comes to psychopathy though. It's essentially a Hollywood term these days and not really used as an official diagnosis. Therefore, you can be a bit loosey-goosey with your definitions. The closest "real/official" disorder is Antisocial/Dissocial Personality Disorders.

    If I had to come up with a benefit, perhaps having someone incapable of accepting authority would be good for questioning corrupt authority figures. Sort of an inciter of rebellion.
     
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  5. davcha

    davcha Banned

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    More insight about the character: he's kind of a narcissist. He's charismatic so he's not used to being said "no", for example... Even less used to being just plain ignored either.
    I'm not exactly sure if I can add something like rebellious against authority. I think he doesn't really need to be rebellious against authority, he's kinda used to play around the rules. But he certainly disregard authority figures, at least secretly.

    That said, using the sociopathy is a positive way can be relatively easy I guess. What's difficult for me is: how to do that while not praising sociopathy at the same time?
     
  6. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    Take a look at some conmen movies. Catch Me If You Can and I Love You Philip Morris. They leave a trail of trouble, hurt people, are thieves, but we can appreciate what they accomplish. You might not find those characters classically psychopathic (they have emotions) but they do likely qualify as antisocial personalty disorder. Regardless of that, those stories do a good job of showing off inappropriate skills but not glorifying the character/traits.
     
  7. Whitecrow

    Whitecrow Active Member

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    Sociopaths and psychopaths are completely opposite things, although they lead to similar results.

    Sociopaths are people with mental health problems. They are unstable and inadequate. Nervousness, irascibility, uncontrollable outbursts of aggression, these are all symptoms of sociopathy.

    Psychopaths are just the opposite. They are very calm and reasonable. They just don't have a sense of morality. Right and wrong, good and evil. These are all empty words for them.They are calculating egoists for whom your life is worthless. They will undoubtedly violate laws and moral standards if it is beneficial and they are sure to avoid punishment. There are a lot of such people in the world, but they only allow you to live because they do not yet benefit from your death. They are usually pedantic, polite, intelligent, ambitious and very organized.

    Some are mentally unstable and poorly controlled, others are psychologically stable, but have a complete lack of morality.

    The crimes that sociopaths do are usually spontaneous and poorly implemented.
    The crimes that psychopaths commit are planned, organized and implemented with incredible precision. Whether the clues are at the scene of the crime, or they lead in the opposite direction.


    Since they are so different, you need to understand what you expect.

    Someone who commits crimes without any purpose and because of the loss of control over themselves.
    Someone looking for a specific benefit. Organizes and plans his crimes.
    Who is this character? A homeless person who attacks people with a fork. A successful businessman who kidnaps competitors and lets them feed the fish during the weekend.
    Who is he?

    Most entrepreneurs and businessmen are psychopaths. But as I said before, they do not kill people if you do not stand in their way, or if they have another way to get rid of you. So most of them are safe.

    Sociopaths are ordinary people too. You've probably met people who don't really like to communicate with people. When they communicate, everything ends in a scandal or quarrel. A person who just likes to be left alone and work quietly (They usually like to work with either technique or the manual labor of creating something). They do not like to be distracted, they like silence and loneliness.


    Both groups in their conditions live quietly and do not create problems for anyone.

    But if you put them in an uncomfortable position, they become dangerous.

    If you get a sociopath to work in a call center or a sales manager. Communicate with people.

    If you jeopardize everything the psychopath has worked on all his life, and leave no legal way out to save the situation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    In reading about sociopaths and psychopaths, one interesting difference stood out for me—which might make some good story material. Sociopaths are very capable of creating and maintaining a strong emotional bond with some other person or people. They are genuine in this respect—and may see themselves as intensely moral. (It's just that anybody outside their circle is seen as 'not' moral, and often not deserving of life.) Many sociopaths become fanatically loyal to a cause, a boss, a parent or sibling, etc.

    A psychopath may pretend to be loyal, but their supposed loyalty is manipulative, rather than genuine. And they certainly won't sacrifice themselves for anybody. Sociopaths, on the other hand, can be more than ready and willing to die for whatever they support.
     
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  9. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    Officially sociopathy and psychopathy are interchangeable words for the same thing. I know there are people who like to use the words to describe different things but there is no official separate definition.
     
  10. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    Lots of flaws can become good points...what makes them that is the situation, because the situation can provide a reasonable excuse. Being selfish is not a desirable quality but it could be the only thing that keeps you alive in a world where everyone is starving and you have no choice but to steal from others.

    I would look a the list of qualities seen in sociopaths and ask yourself how could these be reversed and be positive in some circumstances. The truth is you should really be doing that for characters in general.
     
  11. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    Look where you find most sociopaths in real life: high executive positions and politics. Why? Because their lack of empathy and distance from emotions allow them to make sound decisions under the highest of pressures while they remain competing with their fellows.

    I suggest you read about some of history's successful sociopaths. Napoleon was one, Talleyrand another and Kissinger a third. Talleyrand especially. Napoleon especially; it's a fun fact that he cheated in card games just so that he wouldn't ever lose, and even paid amends to the people he cheated against. His first military leadership was actually in a school snowball fight where he instructed his friends to cover stones with snow and throw them that way; thus almost killing a fellow schoolboy. He showcased rowdyness, then later a completely tamed personality of highly calculative nature that was only ever betrayed by sociopaths that were more skilled than him...

    ...Talleyrand...

    ... also, here's a video to explain why sociopaths are successful.

     
  12. MusingWordsmith

    MusingWordsmith Shenanigan Master Contributor

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    I think Lazaares has a good idea there. For an example of how to do that in a story you could read Dan Wells I am Not a Serial Killer and the sequels. The MC is entirely the type of person who can become a serial killer. He knows it. He'd determined to not do that.

    There's no doubt at all that this kid's a very messed up kid, but he manages to use his twisted mind in a way that's ultimately closer to good than evil. I think the series does a good job of balancing letting the MC be a hero without glorifying his mental state.
     
  13. Humei

    Humei Member

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    I think to prevent glorifying them, you just NEED to also show the downside.

    I think a psychopath can indeed be very calm, goal-oriented, adventurous, strategic, confident and calculated. They can make decisions quickly under great pressure, be leaders and pursuade others of the greatness of their decisions (> glib and charming). With no fear.

    I (having seen this behaviour from up close) dare to differ about the soundness of many such decisions. A sound decision imho needs to take into account not only the direct benefit of one (the psychopath) plus a nice selling story, but also the context and the true benefit of others, of the whole, on the longterm. Also, the things that a psychopath values in a decision are often superficial (e.g. money, winning, power) and not the deeper things i would value most. They are not good at taking into account "soft things" like love, feelings, empathy, etc.

    I think this is a major reason of loads of issues in our society.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 3, 2020
  14. Humei

    Humei Member

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    They could also be someone who is loads of fun to be with and listens well to all your stories. Then uses your deepest fears against you with great precision when you go against them. I think there are good things to show...but not without showing at least a bit of the downside.

    For me psychopathy seems like a hyperfocus on one's goals to the exclusion of all else. Which can be useful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
  15. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    You could always read "The Fountainhead" Ayn Rand. She practically praised this kind of thinking. And her whole argument is how vices like greed and sociopathy are good things.
     

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