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  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    How many words in...

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by deadrats, Sep 22, 2020.

    How many words into a writing project do you have to be to feel confident that your story is going somewhere? I primarily work with the short form. I've written some novels just to prove to myself that I could. But now I'm at the threshold with a new story, passing the 5k word mark. I'm not sure if I should be making cuts and keeping it short or if I should see where this one goes.

    I know there's no definitive answer, but when you start a new story how many words in are you when you start feeling this story has legs? I guess I'm asking people who don't use outlines more than those who do. Or maybe I'm wondering what those with a history of false starts and failed attempts think. When do you think a story is book-length worthy, especially if you've trained yourself to keep most things you write under 5k words? I don't want to keep writing bad novels over good short stories. I don't know. This is a little tough for me. Thoughts and advice welcome. Thanks.
     
  2. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    For short stories, the kinda stuff I like writing is basically written when I have the idea. They are all so short, and I'll know if they are worth writing when I'm a page or so in and it still feels like it is worth doing.

    Novels are harder. I've had what I thought were good outlines before, gotten 50+ pages in, and then scrapped it / turned it into a short. The novel I'm working on now is going well, but it took until I was about 100 pages deep before I knew it would be something I could finish. I say that EVEN THOUGH I have the fifth draft of a scene list with 75 entries. I've had that before and been wrong. Sometimes with novels, I recognize now, that I would get into the second act, and the situation would be much thinner and simpler than it should be--like a movie. "Cloverfield," for example, has a second act about a guy who tries to get to a building to save his girlfriend. That's fine for a movie, because it is about the spectacle and the reaction shots, but it is thin for a novel, and sometimes stuff I write is more like a screenplay.

    This novel, on the other hand, I got into the second act a little late and I realize that I have a surplus of stuff going on, too much of a sandbox, and maybe too many characters and problems. That's actually a good thing for me because I'll be able to write the whole thing, and I'll be able to cut some of it out later, and that's fine. With my experience, getting to this point with enough left to do is the critical part.
     
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  3. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    With a short it kind of depends on whether I have an ending in mind yet. If I do, it only takes me about 2K or so... just enough to see that the characters and vibe and all that are coming together the way they should be. If I don't have an ending, and I get about 2-3K in and don't see anything coming together, that's usually a sign that I need to table it for a minute until something comes to me.

    Novels? Who the hell knows? There's so much crap going on I could get all the way to the end before I realize it was never going to work in the first place. Generally though, about 25-30K (about a month's worth of work) is a good measure or me. If it's been in the marinade that long I have a decent idea of what it's going to taste like.

    So I guess that means I have to reach the middle? If the ending is set, the middle can always be retrofitted. But if there's nothing coming together, it's time to shit or get off the pot. Usually I get off the pot.
     
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  4. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I don't have a number of words. Instead, the signal for me is how the relationships are connecting.

    If all I get is a daisy-chain where I know how:

    Character A relates to Character B
    Character B relates to Character C
    Character C relates to Character D
    Character D relates to Character E
    Character E relates to Character F...

    ... that's a story that doesn't have much of a chance under my tutelage. But when a web starts to form where I know how:

    Character A relates to Characters B, C, D, E, F
    Character B relates to Characters A, C, D, E, F
    Character C relates to Characters A, B, D, E, F, etc.

    When that starts to happen, that's a good sign that things are gelling.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  5. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    I don't write the first word until I know the story backwards and forwards.
     
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  6. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    Usually it's about time instead of words. When I get an idea for a full length novel, I explore the idea by either writing a chapter or making a list of characters and crafting a synopsis. Then I let it sit because these ideas always come when I'm working on something else. If I'm still interested and thinking about the story when all my other projects and previous ideas are explored, then it's going somewhere and I'm going to write it.

    I've got stories I've scribbled 5k (or a chapter or two), getting the idea out that I then never revisit. I put the project aside, the idea never inspires me again, I forget about it, and I consider it just some fleeting fancy.
     
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  7. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think it matters when your story 'comes together', so long as it does so at some stage. You may not realise what your novel is really about until you've completed the first draft. Then you can edit it with your newly discovered theme in mind. The more chaotically you work, the more 'deleted scenes' you'll end up with so it pays to do some planning, even if you do so as you go along.
     
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  8. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    What made you decided to take those 50 pages into a novel and turn it into a short story? I guess it could go the other way too, a short story that feels like it should go on and have more story with pages after it or all around it. But I'm so much better at writing short stories than novels that sometimes I wonder how much I should bother aiming for longer works. However, every now and then a story doesn't really fit in a short story.

    To make my story in question a short story, I would cut out the part that originally kicked off this idea. In a novel, I would rely on it more. I'm sort of startling the line, thinking about aiming for a novella. I've always been good at structure and writing to a word count. And, though I don't outline, I like to sort of have a word count or page count in mind while writing. This story is messing me up with that.

    I think this is one of the better ideas I've had, and I've left myself tons of room to explore if I keep going (I have kept writing a little while I'm still trying to decide how long or short to make this). So, I totally get where you're at in your novel. Because I like the idea of this story a lot, I want to fit it into the right form. And I'm not very confident when it comes to writing novels. I've tried to do very little if anything with the ones I have finished.

    Anyway, I am very interested to hear more about your reasoning behind turning a novel start into a short story. That's the most likely direction for me to take. I'm just not sure it's the best direction. I do sell short stories, but eventually I feel like I might produce a publishable novel. Still, what made you go back and realize the story you were writing worked better as a short story? That's the real question I'm facing.
     
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  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I always finish my short stories. And I never have an ending in mind for anything. If fact the few times I have thought of an ending beforehand, I realized that ending was actually a better beginning. Most things for me, both in life and writing, never go as planned so I tend not to plan much more than a writing schedule. What you say is interesting because it's the middle of my story that will change most depending on form I continue with.
     
  10. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I find that I have a much harder time coming up with ideas if I try to plan something out or flesh out the idea before really writing it. I can almost always just sit down and write. But writing an outline might take me longer than writing the story. It's funny how people can work so differently even when doing the same thing.
     
  11. Underneath

    Underneath Member

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    Ten thousand words. Then I sit and edit them laboriously. Then I scrap them entirely, write twenty thousand more with a better understanding of what I want to achieve. What world it’s in — who the characters and what the conflict I want to tell is.

    Maybe I’ll scrap again at 50,000 and blitz my way to 120,000. Time will tell.
     
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  12. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I can’t answer because I’ve never got there, and considering I once wrote as many as 20,000 words with one of my novel attempts, it should tell you a lot about my methods... or lack of them.
     
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  13. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I'm just not a planner. It's not the way I've ever approached writing. Honestly, I'm not sure how you guys do it because it really screws me up. I've been doing this long enough to know how I work best. I don't see me changing my writing habits anytime soon. What I do like to plan is length. I can write to length and knowing my desired word count makes something in my brain form the story accordingly. I don't worry so much about a story coming together. They usually come together. It's just that novel-or-short-story coin toss I sort of feel caught in. Maybe I'm a little weird.
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I thought I was prolific until I came across your progress journal. Aren't you the one who writes like a million words a day?
     
  15. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    You still got pretty far. Why did you stop? Did you ever think about pulling a short story out of what you had or was it one of those things that you just call a wash?
     
  16. Underneath

    Underneath Member

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    Do you still follow the basics of story structure? Inciting incidents at X way through novel, gateway of no return at X and Y ways through the novel?
     
  17. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I can't say the formula you've presented is my typical story structure. Honestly, I don't really think about structure. It's just sort of something that has always come natural to me. I do, at times, like to play with structure in ways that are less conventual, but even that's not planned out. I am an avid reader and credit that as the reason things tend to work for me with structure. When I write it's almost like I'm on autopilot and then I see what I've got when it's written down. It's just always sort of been the way I work. I'm not sure how much sense that makes to people who are planners.
     
  18. Underneath

    Underneath Member

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    Interesting. Is the structure something you aim to build more in the editing phase, comparatively? I’m not really a planner either outside of the basics of structure.
     
  19. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Structure just usually works for me from the start. I'm known to make a lot and often big changes during revision, but the structure is already there. Sure, I could change it, but it's never the problem or something I need to build. It's just sort of builtin to the writing process for me.
     
  20. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    Haha, I suppose. Though I think it's entirely different when writing shorter things compared to novels--and particularly when writing more literary stuff. My word count would plummet with literary short stories. Plus, I find it best to just get the first draft down, push through and write crap if I have to. Then go back and edit into something better. Which, honestly all my stuff could be better but some indie markets on Amazon show preference to a certain prolific level and readers are willing to forfeit a bit of quality for quantity depending on the genre.
     
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  21. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    You sound like Steven King. He claims not to outline, or to know how long a piece will be. I think "Misery" was originally a short story that kept going.

    I'm such a heavy outliner for long pieces. I might have 10k words in the outline and story bible, and a scene list that I'll redraft 4+ times. Stuff like this:

    1--Set-up--Hero in the normal world exposes three problems. He is hunting deer and worried he won't have a job when he gets back.
    2--Hero hunts the deer but finds it strange people are in his area. He spots two and recognizes one. Not a friend.
    3--Hero injures a deer with his bow, but while he is stalking it, he realizes he is being stalked. He finds his deer but someone else has already tagged it. Others are closing in. Decides if he confronts people ahead or behind.
    8--Inciting Incident--Enemy hunter shows up in Hero's camp at night and tells him to stay out of Smallville.
    10--Debate--return to smallville or go to uncle's fishing boat to work, consider shooting Enemy

    For a 100k novel, I'll have something like that from 1-75+, which I keep editing down so that each scene has a material goal and subtext and an active protagonist. I'll try to combine them so that none are just for delivering exposition. I'll try to put 2-3 together for one character, then maybe another character's scenes. Blah blah blah. I'm sure you can see from the example scene list above how it might be easy for me to come up with a bunch of scenes that sound like a lot is happening, but really the emotional content could be stripped down to just a couple good scenes.

    But despite all that, sometimes I'll get into a novel and just decide that it's boring, or that there isn't enough going on and it's too simple, or there isn't any subtext, or multiple levels of conflict, or it is just uninspiring. Once I get that feeling, I decide I fucked up and abandon the novel because it isn't worth fixing.

    For example, imagine I'm outlining a novel about a haunted house. Logline: a man returns to his childhood home with wife and kids, and must confront a history of infidelity and drug use while his family battles a haunting. I might be thinking that the ghosts come after the family based on their personal demons, and that exposes their fears to the other family members, who then feel betrayed, which escalates the haunting. It sounds like a good story, but when I get into writing it, maybe I realize the only tension is in the marriage, and only the haunting that exposes it and the forgiveness or breakup is interesting. So, maybe I scrap the whole book and I write a thirty page story just about the married couple. Cut the kids, the ghosts, the backstory of the house beyond the little I need, and then I just write a little haunting short.

    The last time it happened, I took the best scene--a medical rescue, and turned it into a novella. It is my favorite thing I've written, which I put here: https://johncalligan.com/2020/04/03/the-ash-burned-us-most-novella-complete/

    And I honestly can't remember anything about the novel I was working on when I scrapped it for this, other than that I was at least 70 pages into it. I'm sure I just thought it was thin and boring. The fact that I wrote the whole scene list and started on it, but can't remember it, speaks volumes to why I ended up dropping it.
     
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  22. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    And that may be the case for you. As I've said before, I know the next 28 books that I'm going to be writing. Most are series, granted, but I have characters and plots for every single one of them. Ideas are a dime a dozen. If you keep your eyes open, they're everywhere. Every book you read, every TV show you watch, everywhere you go, there are ideas. You just have to get them down and be able to combine them into interesting stories to make use of them. Ideas are simple. Understanding how to translate ideas into plots, that's more difficult. Being able to take plots and make them into finished novels, that's something that takes a lot of work and you learn it the more you do it, but it's certainly doable.

    Personally, I don't think it matters how you get to that point, only that you do. Every writer needs to come up with a method that works for them, but I see far too many whose method clearly doesn't work because they never finish anything, but they're too stubborn to admit that their method doesn't work and try something else. Maybe they only like to write the first 2/3 of books, I don't know. You can't sell 2/3 of a book. Nobody is going to want to read 2/3 of a book. If you can't get to the finish line, you need to find another way because whatever you're doing simply isn't working. If people want to be successful at this, they have to go beyond "I like to write" and go for "I like to finish books". Or short stories. Or poems or whatever. The act of doing isn't enough. You have to finish to get anywhere.
     
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  23. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Several reasons. I’d hit a major dead end and couldn’t shake off the notion it wasn’t really going anywhere in the first place. I grew bored of the story. I grew bored of writing in general. In a nutshell I gave up, but then the ‘never give up’ ideology has never been part of my makeup. I’ll happily give up on things without letting it affect me too much.
     
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  24. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Same
     
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  25. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Dammmmnnnn! I hope you live that long.
     

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