1. kadedraven

    kadedraven New Member

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    Editor Advice for Non-binary Submissions

    Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by kadedraven, Oct 29, 2020.

    So, I'm not sure if this is the right forum to address this issue, but I have a rather interesting dilemma.
    I'm an editor for Dark Fantasy Webzine and we take agent-less unqueried dark fantasy submissions for publication.

    I received one such submission by a queer, non-binary individual. That's great, as it makes no impact on their submission getting approved/denied. We don't discriminate. We don't care.

    But the character in their story is referred to as the pronoun "they" or "their". Now this gets really confusing and not very easily to follow, but the story is quite unique.

    Now, I personalize all my rejection letters (a lot of work!), but now this whole "they" thing is really hard to approach. How do I tell them that this isn't working in the story without touching sensitive topics?

    Is this mode of storytelling normal in some communities? I've never come across this before.

    Anyone have similar experiences?
     
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  2. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    I have my own feelings about the attendant issue of gender fluidity, but from a purely linguistic point of view I don't think the English language is equipped to handle that sort of thing in a story. It gets pretty confusing. Your letter will necessarily touch sensitive topics, so just be straight with the author. Tell them kindly why the story doesn't work for your publication and hope that they take it the right way. It's not your responsibility after that as far as I can see.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  3. hyacinthe

    hyacinthe Banned

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    I don't find non-binary pronouns confusing.
     
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  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think the non-binary pronouns are confusing. Maybe you need to have more faith in your readers. It's not like work with non-binary pronouns has never been published before. You seem to imply that it's a good story, but this is the issue holding you back. If that's true, I think it's really sad. And, honestly, you should just send a form rejection because your issues with this are more part of a problem. I don't know if you missed it, but there's been a big push in publishing for more diversity. The writer doesn't need to hear from you that their pronoun choices were confusing just because you felt that way. Just reading an editor say something like this on the forum is upsetting. I hope for their sake a bigger and better publication come along.
     
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  5. kadedraven

    kadedraven New Member

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    I think you all vastly misunderstood me, but that's okay. I guess I opened a can of worms.
     
  6. kadedraven

    kadedraven New Member

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    I think my initial post came off as a bit uninformed and unsentimental, and I take full responsibility for how it sounds (even to me rereading it) as a bonafide jerk. But my intentions were not to create discomfort or express any discomfort that I may or may not have. I do not, in fact, have any discomfort toward non-binary individuals or literature as such.

    I was seeking sentiments from this writer's community about non-binary (or a lack of a better word) literature. I have never read a story such as this before, and while this is a unique story (the gender subject aside), the writer entangles both the nominative singular pronoun with the nominative plural pronoun, making the story a difficult read. I fully believe there is a push in literature to feature this type of writing, but I have never encountered it myself. It's interesting and really pushes how much the English language and ideologies have shifted in society.

    That's all. If you all still have issues with the way I'm trying to express myself, let me know constructively! :D

    Thank you.
     
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  7. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    I've never run across a book written non-binary before so take my opinion with a grain of salt: I think it could be interesting with stylistic/grammatical choices.

    The writer just has to be real clear who he refers to with each use of the pronoun. But that's what grammar does, anyhow?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
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  8. kadedraven

    kadedraven New Member

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    I totally agree. It could be interesting, just as some books are written in 2nd POV. Stylistic and grammatical choices make it work, I think.
     
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  9. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    we had an extensive discussion about this with a member who had a non binary character (and was themselves transgender) last year. The upshot was that some people find singular 'they' confusing and some don't.

    Realistically you can't avoid sensitive topics while telling them your concerns, and I would suggest that it's better to discuss it head on than to dance around the matter... " I don't think singular they works in this story because xyz therefore might I suggest a gender neutral singular pronoun such as Xe" or whatever ...

    With my moderator hat on, i'd caution everybody to focus on the specifics - this thread will not be allowed to spin into wider debate room style thread about gender pronouns
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  10. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Perhaps it would help the author if you could point out specific examples in the text where it becomes confusing.

    Perhaps the author could reword some sentences to be less confusing while still keeping their choice of pronoun. Sometimes it's the sentence structure that creates confusion, rather than the choice of pronoun.
     
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  11. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    I remember reading a M-M work of some literary significance (shortlisted for something or other, but I can't remember the prize, the title, or the author) that suffered from a similar problem in that I don't recall any female characters at all, but a number of the male characters had been romantically or sexually connected at different points in the story. There were a couple of scenes where several of them got together (no, just coffee or drinks) and trying to untangle a whole forest of "he" "him" and "his" from each other. May have been deliberate, but it made for some slow going. I think @Naomasa298 is right though, the best thing to do would be to find a particularly problematic passage and point out to the author exactly how their pronoun use can lead to misunderstanding. I'm not sure how the problem could be solved, but I personally wouldn't suggest using any of the newer non-binary pronoun sets (Spivak, Xe, or whatever). If they suggest or ask about using one of those alternatives, fine, but I think suggesting it might come across as pushy or agenda-driven.
     
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  12. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Does the character have a name? Just use that more often.
     
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  13. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    I recently read Zenobia July, and the author used a lot of non-binary, including singular "they". It made perfect sense, at least to me, so structure must be getting in the way. Even "he" and "she" and plural "they" can get confusing if they aren't placed right.

    I think it's possible that you and the readers would get used to the usage, but if you're sure that's not the case, just be honest and explain what grammatical reasons make it confusing. Is the problem that the author uses singular "they" and plural "they" in the same paragraph? That could be a nightmare to sort out. Just like overuse of "he" to the point that the reader can't discern which male character is being referred to, the easy solution would be exactly what @Selbbin suggested: use proper nouns more often.
     
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  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    This won’t be confusing for most SF/F readers, I suspect. I’ve seen it before, as well as other gender-neutral pronouns. No big deal.
     
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  15. Kyle Phoenix

    Kyle Phoenix Active Member

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    I'm not familiar with the process of writing rejection letters and remain thankfully naive to the horror of receiving them. In a purely hypothetical situation I might write something like the text below. I don't know if this is the best way to approach it, but hopefully it is thoughtful enough to provide some basis for a more appropriate response. Feel free to borrow ideas or put them in your own words if they are helpful to expanding your thoughts.

    ***
    "To whom it may concern,

    I must regret to inform you that I have settled on rejecting your submission on the grounds that the use of the pronouns "they" and "their" makes the story confusing and hard to follow which character is being referred to in the course of the narrative.

    Relations between editors and writers are often based on a professional distance necessary for a productive and mutually beneficial, if sometimes difficult, relationship. I feel that the sensitive nature of the material in your manuscript means that I must address some concerns directly and insist that this rejection is not a reflection on you as an writer or the wealth of experiences with which you have invested in this novel, where you have no doubt been exploring dimensions of your identity and personality in the creative process as is the tendency of all writers to do so. Nobody enjoys rejecting someone's creative work or receiving notice of such rejection. Writing requires a great deal of passion and as such an intimate activity, we communicate the secrets of the soul to the world in an accessible format. Whatever disappointment you may feel with this response, I hope that you will take this opportunity as a time for reflection based on some of the constructive criticisms I have offered.

    All works of literature are ultimately a self-portrait of their authors, even if the direct experiences with which the author may be obscured by various fantastical elements in the process of story writing. Writers necessarily have to invest part of themselves in their work, even in circumstances which are the products of their imagination. This makes it important for their to be as great a diversity of story-tellers as their are stories to tell. Not surprisingly, the relationship between editors and writers requires disentangling many of the strong emotional attachments writers may have to the particular use of words within a text in the hope of raising the standard of the whole. Whilst I believe your test has not reached this standard, reading your manuscript has made me aware of certain possibilities in imagination that I was not familiar with before and I am grateful to have shared in this exchange with you for that. I assume that, if the work were published in a improved manner, readers would feel the same gratitude to you as a writer for expanding their horizons within the context of story-telling.

    I confess to being perplexed by the unexpected difficulties in the process of characterisation of non-binary individuals and how pronouns are used in this descriptive context. I must confess that part of this rejection is because I feel inadequate to do the text justice given my unfamiliarity with the issues it raises and do not wish to compromise it's literacy experience unfairly. I am aware that, though acting in my capacity as an editor, I am also a participant in the marketplace of ideas by which society explores the possibility for change. As there is greater acceptance and understanding of transgenderism in society, so there will no doubt be greater scope of representation of such characters and their stories in literature. In reading your manuscript I have been struck by the uniqueness of the story and its intriguing perspective.

    In ideal circumstances the words on the page should communicate the vivid imagination you have invested in your characters, story and setting in the words of the text itself, so that everyone can enjoy your work. At present I do not believe the text has reached this standard and is open to misinterpretation and confusion as a result. Although I do not feel comfortable publishing this manuscript in it's current state, it clearly has potential. I would encourage you to continue working on it to overcome the issues I have identified here so that it is accessible to as wide an audience as possible who may enjoy the world you created as you have intended.

    Thank you for taking the time to write and share your submission and I wish you best of luck in your future literary endeavours.

    Yours Sincerely....

    [Signature] "
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  16. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    It's worth noting that if you mention the use of "they/their" as part of the reason for the rejection, no matter how you try to explain or qualify it, there is some chance (greater than zero) that the author will go on social media and identify your market and say that's why they were rejected. If they do, you may end up regretting that you raised this issue in the rejection letter.
     
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  17. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    I think you should separate whether it is:

    1. a grammatical problem. In the same way as using he/she can also get confusing if two characters of the same gender are mentioned in one sentence, is the use of they/their confusing because the sentence is plain written badly?

    2. a problem of pure unfamiliarity. As in, your brain is short-circuiting because you're not used to reading "they/their" as singular, and therefore your brain automatically leaps to the conclusion that it refers to a plural group, only it doesn't. In other words, the confusion is because you haven't been exposed to this type of literature before and thus you're not used to interpreting the pronoun the way it needs to and can be interpreted.

    Note: there's also a chance, and this is purely speculative, that those who use they/their as a singular gender-neutral or non-binary pronoun need to write their sentences slightly differently in order to make a more concerted effort at clarity - whether that's because the writing requires it, or because of the general audience's unfamiliarity. The writer must work with the reader's unfamiliarity and help them get used to it, to an extent.

    Anyway, I'd say, figure out what the problem is. If it's #1 (grammar), then of course, reject and explain. If it's #2 (unfamiliarity), then I'd actually work with the author to help clarify his writing for those who are unfamiliar, rather than reject. If the story would have otherwise been chosen and published, then work with the author and do not reject the submission based on this issue, because then you really would be rejecting it because of your ignorance of the subject and possible usages of pronouns, and that isn't fair.
     
  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    This is true - it might be safer all round to just make a form rejection without mentioning reasons "Unfortunately your story was not quite what we were looking for for this edition, we wish you luck with your future endeavors... blah de blah)... writers get them all the time
     
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  19. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    We had SO many amazing entries we can't possibly fit them all in without making the type too small to read. Sadness overwhelms me as I have to announce to you, along with so many other talented artists, that your magnificent creation cannot be shared with our readers, which we acknowledge is a great loss to them and literature in general. We're certain the world will have the opportunity to bask in your brilliance in some other outstanding publication, and we encourage you to give them the opportunity to make history.
     
  20. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    also if you are just one of an editorial team.. its really one to discuss with your colleagues, owner etc (unless of course its actually your ezine and by 'we' you mean 'I')
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020

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