1. baboonfish

    baboonfish Member

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    How important is a traditional story arc?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by baboonfish, Jan 19, 2021.

    My opinion is that, while it is a very useful guide for someone (like most of us) looking to get their first novel published. However, I read some articles which make it sound like the ONLY option, which to me just seems wrong.

    https://alanrinzler.com/2008/07/ask-the-editor-constructing-the-narrative-arc/

    "Constructing such a narrative arc is not easy but it is mandatory."

    How so? If it were true we would be missing thousands of rich works from writers as diverse as H Murakami & S King and many in between.

    How closely do other aspiring writers follow these rules?
     
  2. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    I believe that someone who says that there is only one way of doing things hasn't spent enough time trying other things.
    Unless they're a surgeon, in which case I would urge them to go with the one way. I would not have appreciated waking up with a balloon animal for a lung.

    That said, I will concede that a specific way might be the best way. But in the end, the "only" way is a matter of personal preference, isn't it?
    Up until I read your post, in hopes of learning that a traditional arc was, in fact, not at all important, I never even thought about these rules and just worked off what I think I remember from books I've read in the past.
    I've been trying to think of books that didn't follow a traditional arc while writing this, but I don't read nearly enough to come up with anything. I do love music, though, and if this formula-principle would hold, we'd be bereft of Bohemian Rhapsody. Child In Time. Most of Pink Floyd's work. I'm not too well versed in jazz, but I'm gonna go ahead and say: All of those guys.
     
  3. baboonfish

    baboonfish Member

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    Christ, imagine if musicians only followed traditional song structures. SNOOZE!!
     
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  4. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    I'm an advocate of understanding why something works, with which I don't mean rote recitation of the three-act structure. Give me a better reason than 'it works'. Sure, by all means, if you're a beginner try everything and pick the techniques that seem correct to you. Go on, try it, and then write differently. Only when you've walked a mile in that particular shoes will you be able to judge with confidence.
     
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  5. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Goodbye prog.
     
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  6. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Not sure I've ever read a story without a beginning, middle, and an end. Or a story without rising action, tension, and resolution. Or a character that didn't undergo a transition. If such exist, I'd love to hear about them.
     
  7. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Maybe Kishōtenketsu as a story structure that doesn’t rely on conflict, and thus doesn’t follow the pattern of rising action, tension, and resolution?
     
  8. baboonfish

    baboonfish Member

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    I agree that a story without ANY of these is unlikely to be particularly readable, there are many that ignore at least one of those three things and are still fine works. My question is not implying it would be wise to ignore all of these, its more about following all of these, i.e do other writers use it as a gospel or do they enjoy bending or breaking one or more rules of the traditional arc.

    Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas, I would argue is devoid of any of the traditional arc. I mean, yeah it has a beginning of sorts and an end of sorts but the character is the same drug addled maniac he was at the start and the narrative is all over the place, yet it is still one of my all time favourites, and by no means 'poorly written' as HST's handle on the craft of writing is clear. Someone such as Philip K Dick has some unusual arcs, and there are books with interwoven separate stories that only play by some of the rules. Or Stephen King's IT which sprawls through many peaks and troughs of tension, although yes it still hits some or even most of the traditional arc 'points' somewhere along the line.

    However, on the flip side, now you lay it out like that it does seem unwise to specifically set out the deviate from those three important devices you mention, especially as a no mark. Perhaps music and film are easier mediums in which to get away with such flagrant disregard for the rules!
     
  9. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    Many people who write blogs are looking for them to read and listened to. I've seen blogs promising the "secrets to getting published" and making it sound as though, if you follow their blog series you'll get published. I've seen blogs that are basically "never do this!" - and yet it's been done. When they make this how to blogs or articles on writing, they are aware it's mostly likely going to be novices that read them and have no clue about writing yet and will listen to their advice and maybe even share there information with others and draw others to them. They usually allows find a way to plug their own work in there 'I'm helping others' mission. Ever read an article or blog that begins with a treat of the authors history and a long introduction of their life story - I have.

    Always be wary of what you're reading on the internet.
     
  10. baboonfish

    baboonfish Member

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    Good advice. The blog I was initially pointing to was linked by another blog which offers VERY good advice (I strongly recommend this - https://evolvedpub.com/resources-for-writers/). The blog actually has another article about BREAKING the rules of story arc so you're probably right about it being mostly to do with gaining traction. However, my comments are more aimed at discussing what other writers on this forum think of the importance of the story arc.
     
  11. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's important because without it there is no story. Whether you have to follow it rigidly is another thing. Just because someone can think of two works that are different doesn't mean it is necessary for others with less skill or popularity. You can follow the 3 act structure to the core and still create an amazing story. A novel can't survive without a structure. Everything comes down to skill. Just because something has a rigid story arc doesn't mean it can't be amazing. I think anything is relative to the writers skill to pull it off.
     
  12. Kehlida

    Kehlida Member

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    I think it's an important general structure. It is the bare bones layout for a story to work- but you can more than one climactic points, we sprinkle in sub-plots and (ideally) resolve them all by the end- and a story without a rising tension would be incredibly boring for most people. Dynamic characters must undergo some form of arc and even characters who do not alter throughout the story must interact with others or the world itself somehow.

    It depends how precisely you interpret the principle, or which layout best fits the story you're telling. Plus, individual skill must be accounted for.
     
  13. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    That would be what Robert McKee in Story calls anti-narrative. He marks off 3 separate categories. I'm trying to remember this, it's probably a little off.

    There's traditional narrative, then there's something like non-narrative, I think he calls it Minimalism. It still has a narrative but it's very subdued and minimized so many people don't recognize it as such. Then there's Modernism/Post Modernism, which across the spectrum of the arts is a rebellion against the traditional. I think he calls this movement in story anti-narrative—a deliberate attempt to defy the conventions.
     
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  14. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    when I started writing in a serious way, like I wanted (and want) to learn how to write a novel, I found many books and websites outlining story arcs and various elements that are necessary to write a proper novel. Having issues with creating plots, I found many pieces of advice very useful, such as defining wants and needs of a character. They help me orient myself within the world of fiction writing, which can be overwhelming if you don't know anything about it (story arcs give a start on how to organize a story). There is still a lot to learn but now I listen to them less than I did before. In part it is because if I try to structure a novel exactly like suggested, the process would end up not being natural anymore, making writing boring, rigid and unemotional. Of course other more experienced writers can still write amazing stories out of story arcs--I am talking about my personal experience. More importantly, that is not why I am writing. I write to connect with myself and the readers. I write because I want to tell something that makes sense to me. I think this is why fiction writing is such an important experience for me. I think that having a sense of what a story is, which is what a story arc teaches, is important, but there are many different schemes that define how a story arc is shaped. Most often, theories like Campbell's The Hero's Journey structure help see how many different cultures respond to the same elements (what stories we share and what we find satisfactory in stories), but it doesn't claim to be able to teach you to write such stories--if you zoom out enough you will find commonalities, some will matter more than others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  15. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I've never read that one . . . ah, it's a screenwriting text. Those line up with novels a surprising amount. There's some good youtube screenwriting channels that work perfectly for writers too.

    I'm going to have to look at that one!
     
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  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Yes! This! My belief is that it's best to learn the rules and then work intuitively (because it's only the unconscious that has that beautiful graceful flow to it). You can't even meaningfully rebel against or ignore the rules if you don't understand them. I see the rules as training wheels, and once you get your balance, you can discard them.
     
  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    The prog musicians learned all kinds of song structures and music theory, then they were able to splice them together, modify them, and create their own structures. An education doesn't limit your creativity (unless you feel compelled to do exactly what you were taught) it expands it.

    EDIT—Sorry @Steerpike misunderstood your meaning. Yes, if people were forced to follow a standard musical formula, you're right, Prog would never have existed. I thought you were arguing that structure is bad. My bad!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
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  18. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

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    IDK what traditional really looks like.
    I've read stories where the closest thing
    to an antagonist is the characters poor
    choices.

    What about in raunchy stories?
    I think the closest thing to a villain
    in one of those would be a condom.
    (Granted in fiction nobody ever
    needs one, cause magic or something.) o_O

    Or people that play the long con with series
    that all take place one right after the other.
    The first book is all build up to an uninspiring
    cliffhanger. (Granted written well could lure
    us who are not so into series reading.) :)
    So the entire story arc is little chunklets
    to be a full story in the overall collective.

    What about the serial series that never really
    has an ending? At what point to you get in
    so deep that the characters stop having any
    growth and just kinda become blandish personas
    of who they once were, as they are puppeteered
    around by an author who doesn't have to worry
    since their reader base is in too deep to care
    so long as it's the next whatever nonsense with
    their favorite cookie cutouts doing what they
    do best? Sure in the beginning they will
    have some kind of arc, but eventually they just
    become a simple player in a game with no
    real evolution besides perhaps the name of the
    stock villain to simply get the uninspired protaginst
    to put down their beer and pretend to care about
    saving the day for the umpteenth billionth time.

    Pretty much all manner of stories (serial series being
    the exception) have a standard beginning middle and
    end structure. As for how it all plays out to get from
    point A to B and C....that is a broad set of variables
    that can be a genre formula standard, or some off the
    wall twist with taking less conventional avenues.
     
  19. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's essential in genre fiction. I've read literary fiction that veered from the norm though.
     
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  20. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    My favorite quote about rules is from Sir Terry Pratchett. Paraphrased: "The reason we have rules is to make you think before your break them."

    That is to say, of course you can write whatever you want however you want. If you write a great story, it doesn't matter how you did it. But if you're going to try an unconventional approach, you need to have good idea of what you're trying to accomplish. (And even then, experiments always come with a risk of undesirable results, because that's sorta the point of experimenting.) Generally, I think these "rules" exist mostly to keep beginners from forming bad habits before they're experienced enough to actually know what they're doing.

    Basically, don't do it just because you're a contrarian who doesn't like having boundaries imposed on your creativity. The conventions aren't arbitrary, they became conventions because they tend to work. If it helps, think of them less as rules and more as tools.
     
  21. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    No worries :)
     
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  22. baboonfish

    baboonfish Member

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    Some interesting comments. Funny a few people mention 'skill'. Here's a question. Suppose a writer who was very skilled but unpublished wrote two pieces, one following all the usual conventions of story arc and the other veering off significantly. Assuming both are equally skillfully written, how much are his or her chances reduced by submitting the latter over the former?
     
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  23. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I think this goes to what I mentioned earlier about learning the skills and then working intuitively. What you learn is way more than just the basics covered by 'Plotting'. You learn what makes stories work.

    Stephen King in On Writing says he doesn't usually plot, instead he creates what he calls 'situations'. Example, a very repressed and depressed high-school girl gets her first period in gym class and is brutally bullied by the other girls. At the same time she begins to develop powerful telekinetic abilities. Result: Carrie. He just worked intuitively from that premise (the situation as he calls it) and the story basically wrote itself.

    However—and this is vitally important—he does know how to plot. I'm not sure at what point he learned that, but some of his stories are plotted (they tend to be his least successful and least favorite ones). But the fact that he understands plotting means he can work out story issues intuitively, without needing to resort to actually writing up a detailed outline. Just like riding a bike, walking or talking—all things we had to learn slowly and laboriously and were incredibly awkward at in the beginning. But when it sinks into the subconscious it becomes intuitive and graceful, you no longer need to concentrate with your tongue sticking out the corner of your mouth. The conscious mind is slow and clumsy, the subconscious exactly the opposite. It takes a period of training and practice to work something deep into the subconscious, but once there, as long as you keep using it, you can now do it instantly and without effort or thought. That's when the magic happens.

    When you see clumsily plotted stories, I believe they were done very consciously, with a great deal of effort, by somebody who either hasn't learned and absorbed the principles yet, or afraid to let go of conscious control.
     
  24. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    "Equally skillfully written" is an interesting way to put it, since successfully selling an unconventional story structure would probably require a fairly high level of skill. This implies that the traditionally written story would still be very good.

    I suspect it might mainly depend on the whims of the publisher. Star Wars got turned down more that once before 20th Century Fox bought it, and that was less because they believed in the concept and more because they liked American Graffiti and trusted that George Lucas knew what he was doing on that alone. It's hard to believe these days but back then that sort of production simply wasn't done - Star Wars was essentially a paradigm shift that forever changed the way the movie industry operated.

    Remember, these people are interested in making money, not promoting experimental art, so they have an incentive to play it very safe. The cynical part of me says that for an unproven author, it would be much easier to get a book published if the publisher considered it a fairly safe bet. The author who took the unconventional path would need to really luck out with a publisher who just happened to like the story enough to believe it could be successful despite breaking new ground.

    The idealistic part of me tells me that we do need people who are willing to to break the mold and try new things, less we want storytelling to stagnate. Just keep in mind that this doesn't just apply to the storyteller, but also the people he relies on to make his story heard.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  25. alw86

    alw86 Active Member

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    If you're so inclined, Manuscript Make-Over by Elizabeth Lyon has a whole section about unconventional story structures (including no structure) and what to be aware of when employing them.
     
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