Writing about heterosexual white men

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Zeppo595, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    I love that guy! I published a story last year based on "Things Fall Apart." (Speaking of writing outside of your comfort zone . . .) All the characters were Ugandan. None of them were very impressed with the Sudanese, which isn't an opinion I really have--how could I?--but the characters had to be true and so they said what they felt. They were mighty impressed with the Kenyans. I think I actually took that attitude from Achebe's book. I'm pretty sure it's in there.

    My story was based on a son distancing himself from his father's teachings. I thought that's what "Things Fall Apart" was aiming for in the end, the big crisis would be the son joining the Europeans, but the story jumped over it, and so I wrote a dark fantasy based around a son drifting away from his father in Uganda. That's just a story I wanted to read. There was a lot of research involved just to kind of understand how people in the area feel about themselves and their neighbors. I can't swear it's perfect, but it was the best I could do. That's all I can aim for. Draw from your own core and put yourself in the characters' world.

    Then you get called for cultural appropriation. haha. You can't win, so just shrug and move on to the next story.

    I need to read Achebe's other books.
     
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  2. B.E. Nugent

    B.E. Nugent Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    All true art reveals something of the human condition, the writer loses control when the work is in the reader's hands. Writing according to prescription holds little appeal, nor do I want to subject myself to an extended PC lecture masquerading as a story. I, as a heterosexual white Irish man have been moved by writers with whom I share no biographical commonality other than shared humanity. This can be fully and thoroughly explored within narrow and broad frames of reference. Make your story speak to me and the ethnicity of the characters is relegated to something of lesser significance. Don't push me where I'm already going. I'll only push back.
     
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  3. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    We're living in the age of outrage. If you don't write from or about diverse perspectives you will be accused of not addressing those issues or being inclusive. If you do then you will be accused of telling stories you have no right to tell, because you need to be to understand.

    You can't win, so don't play. Just write your stories and let the criticism fall where it may.
     
  4. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I like the idea of diversity in stories, portrayed as accepted differences. The trick comes when the differences aren't yet accepted, if that makes sense. I write historical-based fiction, so I have to attempt to get my head around what it would have been like in THAT time and place, for THOSE people.

    Like @EFMingo , I grew up in a small town in the northern part of a Canadian border state. I was born in 1949. My family never had a TV. My exposure to other races and creeds was practically nonexistent. We had NO black families in our town (of around 12,000 people.) Other than the airmen who were stationed at the small air base near the town, we never even saw black people. We also had no Asian people either. A look at our high school yearbook gives a good picture of what we grew up with. Our cultural differences had more to do with ethnic divisions ...usually several generations back. We had lots of people of German and Polish extraction+ living in our town ...and while these divisions weren't 'divisive' they did mean a mixing of European cultures.

    I remember my parents discussing racism, and instilling in me the principle that all people are equal, and that it was a terrible thing to be racist. But I never actually encountered a situation where I had to bring that principle to bear. Other than dealing with some people who would make casually racist remarks.

    As far as gender diversity issues, of course they existed, but not openly.

    If I were to write stories about my upbringing, there would not be any diversity anywhere in it. Because it wasn't a factor for me. Not because I am racist, but because it wasn't a factor. It would be wrong to shoehorn in characters from different backgrounds into that setting, because they just didn't exist for us, in that time and place. I could explore the reasons why, and maybe explore some of the casually racist notions that came up. And maybe highlight how clueless we were. But that's as far as it would go, if I were truly tackling that time and place in my writing.

    I think it's easy to see diversity in current situations, because we are so much more aware of it, and people have moved around so much that there is a lot more racial and cultural mixing than there used to be. Gender diversity is also much more visible than it used to be—a fantastic development. It hurts to think of how folks must have suffered, having to hide their own identities, for fear of being discovered as non-heterosexual and persecuted for it.

    But these issues won't be a factor in every person's story. If you grew up where everybody was the same race as you, and if they hid the fact that they were gay, etc, a story about your life and times won't include diversity. I hope we can celebrate the fact that change HAS happened, but not try to hide the fact that it wasn't always that way.
     
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  5. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    That's only correct if you're limiting the freedoms of others in order to obtain equality. ie, telling me I can only write from the perspective of an oppressed group.

    Well, whoever these people are, they need to learn they don't always get what they want. I really dislike how passive aggressive you're being while insinuating some kind of moral responsibility on others. Moral superiority is a poor substitute for empathy. You can't be burdening people with weight of the world and pretend you're being tolerant for doing so. Everyone has to decide what they will do with their talents.

    Everyone, I am bisexual and try as he (she? Ze? Zir?) doesn't speak for me! You are more than free to tell me if you feel I'm overreacting to a situation.

    No, no, NO!!!! You are not an oppressor just because of the color of your skin or your background or your income level. That is bull! Who came up with that? That's placing a very unrealistic expectation that everyone has to stay in their lane. Well, guess what? This is writing. Writing is art and artists don't stay in their lane.

    In fact, it's more offensive that you're telling them what they can and can't do while acting like you're all enlightened or something. I want to say more, but I won't.

    I don't care if you are LGBQT... or whatever letter of the alphabet. You're taking my voice by assuming I need another person to speak in my behalf. And to tell me my oppressed?! Since when?! You really think that if I'm oppressed by all these cis white males, that I would be able to even say that? (If you're a cis white male, raise your hand if you care? Nobody? None? Alrighty then.)

    This idea that you're only allowed to comment on certain issues because you're a certain group only increases distrust and thus creates more prejudice not less. That's based off the silly notion that the inside perspective is the only one that's true. That is false. The inside perspective can be just as biased and just as false as an ignorant outside perspective.

    Because I don't need to speak in my behalf, I invite everyone to write to their heart's desire. If it's LGBTQ free, so be it! I don't care. My self esteem is not depended on your acknowledgement of my existance! You don't have to cater to my every selfish want. I'm not going to die because I read your book and didn't "see myself in it." This nihilistic, narrow view of the world where everything has to be just right all the time, is killing us! You want me in the shoes of a cis white male? Good. Put me in those shoes, author. I'm ready!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  6. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    A friend of mine was making a movie and he likes to be inclusive of disabilities. He wrote a character who was blind, but that didn't stop her from being a powerful, kick-ass character. He cast a talented actress who wanted to portray a blind person as well as she could so went to the society for the blind, or whatever. And they said that the film needed a blind actress to play the part, because 'only they can understand'. But the right blind actress is very very very rare. So he looked but couldn't find one. The society for the blind didn't help. He also needed advisors to be on set, but he had to pay them outrageous fees, even though it was low budget and no one else was getting paid. But they insisted they had to be there and get paid. So he cut the character from the story.
     
  7. alw86

    alw86 Active Member

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    @jannert All of that is absolutely true, and again, no one should feel 'forced' to write anything. Having said that, regarding historical fiction, I do think there is a lot more diversity in history than many of us realise. Specialist history books have been a goldmine for me, because they focus on stories often left out of the mainstream. I'm reading one about what we would currently term 'gay culture' in Victorian London (it also includes some non-standard gender presentations, as the two were often lumped together at the time), and honestly it's a revelation to me. I had no idea we knew so much behaviour and lifestyles which were necessarily carried out covertly. We even have gay porn tracts surviving from that time (they're on Project Gutenberg)!

    Anyway, all I'm saying is that while people should not feel obliged to write anything they don't want to, making the effort to stretch yourself as a writer can be very rewarding.
     
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  8. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    The thing is, no reader has a right to demand that you write something. If they don't like what you write, they have the ultimate sanction of not reading it.

    Those who are looking for writing that deals with such issues can find other writers who are more to their liking. If that's not what you write, they're looking in the wrong place to satisfy their needs.

    Of course, you could choose to cater to that audience, but the question is, is that what you want to do?

    I personally have never written a story with a black protagonist - or a Hispanic, or Chinese or Swedish one, come to that. It's not that I'm consciously choosing not to do so, they're just not the stories I have to tell. Then again, I haven't written one with a one-legged transgender elf, either.
     
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  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Kathy Bates disagrees
    [​IMG]
     
  10. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    On the flip side good lit fic comes in part from authentically telling your story... so if the OP feels that he is a white man who has no privilege, a really talented writer could write that as a moving and compelling story examining why he feels like that, and how that feels

    Of course a less talented writer might wind up being roundly criticised for thinking that they had no privilege when in fact they had a great deal... the skill and talent being in creating a compelling narrative that leads readers to empathise with the character and thus to challenge their own assumptions about race and privilege... doing something like that would be a major challenge to bring off, but that is what separates great and notable lit fic from the also rans

    personally I'm not that talented so I'll stick to writing escapist genre fiction... and live with the fact that i will never win the booker or a pulitzer
     
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  11. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    When I was but a young lad I wrote a story that won an award. Boasting aside, they wrote in their assessment description "the story of a naïve young man expertly told..."

    And I thought, "he's naïve?" I was being earnest. Turns out I was naïve and that fed into the character. LOL
     
  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    ^ That can make for some of the best stories if done honestly (and well).
     
  13. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Fine. One legged-transgender elf coming right up.

    Seriously though, I'm disabled. I had most of my left foot amputated. So I could write a story involving discrimination and the treatment of the disabled, but I don't simply because I don't feel a need to do so. I don't have that story to tell. I'd rather write about dead people eating your brains.
     
  14. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    This is exactly what I'm talking about! That's just assuming that all blind people are the same. And if you think about it, that's kind of a stupid attitude.
     
  15. zoupskim

    zoupskim Contributor Contributor

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    What is your story, specifically, about?
     
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  16. pyroglyphian

    pyroglyphian Word Painter

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    ... only to be accused (probably by the same person) of exploiting the less privileged to further your writing career... :rolleyes:
     
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  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Totally agree. The research I did for my historical novel turned up a lot I wasn't aware of.
     
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  18. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Many agents (at least on Twitter) say they are looking for diversity. So maybe your reader was trying to prepare you for finding an agent?
     
  19. More

    More Active Member

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    I believe lots of people feel better with themselves by climbing on some moral campaign. Sometimes it is justified but mostly it is just adopting an opinion of the fashionable. I would say as a writer you must be on the right path. Your writing is generating emotion from your readers, well done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  20. NWOPD

    NWOPD Administrator

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    Without going too deep into it, I’ll chime in here. I’m strongly of the opinion you should write what comes naturally, rather than writing to appease a group.

    I’m not sure how one can acknowledge one’s privilege within a presumably fictional story. Writing diverse characters doesn’t seem to do it to me, and you risk being perceived as pandering or inauthentic. There’s also the risk that you won’t write these characters well, since you haven’t been through what they’ve been through.

    I’ve read arguments (albeit people preaching on Twitter) where they strongly believe writers need to be proactively inclusive in thier writing. To a degree, I think this movement is largely political for some - a form of political activism (which I don’t think should hold a place in writing unless you yourself are the activist.)

    There was one case of a literary agent talking about how if the submission didn’t include a black female protagonist, it was going straight into the trash can. That’s one thing if that’s the type of submission they’re looking to publish, which it must have been in her case (I hope anyway), but I believe there is a growing sentiment pushing writers to proactively include characters based on race, sexual orientation, and other minority status.

    Personally, I find the whole thing strange. Altering a character to appeal to a niche of people who probably won’t even read your story seems inauthentic to me. (Not because they’re a minority, because the likelihood of reaching a large audience is small). However, I do believe those pushing this come from a place of sincerity... they want books to appeal to everyone, not just the general reader - and there is something to be said about reading a story where as a minority you can relate to the protagonist. Some people find it easier to relate to a character if he/she is like them, and there are many “non-inclusive” stories.

    That said, I don’t think you should change the character if you don’t want to, or if it just doesn’t feel right. Also ask yourself, why am I writing this? Are you writing for yourself, are you writing for a specific niche, are your writing for sales/mass appeal?
     
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  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Somehow your username doesn't seem to fit your actual beliefs. :cool: :p (Thankfully!)
     
  22. BlitzGirl

    BlitzGirl Contributor Contributor

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    It's quite the complicated situation. On one hand, people are encouraged to "write what they know", and if writing from the PoV of a white, hetero male is "what you know", then that's fair. Then, there's the argument for more diversity, which is just as fair. However, there is a camp of writers/readers who believe that only Black men/women can write Black male/female characters, that you can only write Queer characters if you are Queer yourself. Which just leads back to the "write what you know" train of thought, and I totally get it. Some life experiences cannot be properly understood if you never lived that experience. I'm a white asexual/aromantic female, but it doesn't mean I can't write about characters in love, for example.

    All in all, this is why I always have my stories set in fictional worlds, so I can try to challenge my own world views and experiences in a "safe" environment. My current story has a bisexual character, deals with police corruption and brutality, and has other characters that can tap into other identities and ideas that are not my own. But the main thing is I deal with these issues with respect. I treat all of my characters who are not like me as if they were real people. And their identities and the challenges the story deals with is just one small part of it all. I have a gay man who is very private about his past, who lives in a society where such individuals are made into eunuchs against their will - now, THAT aspect DOES define him because it is why he is where he is, but there is so much more to him than that. That's the trick. Characters have to be more than a list of check boxes, especially if you never lived that experience. That just goes for all characters, they all have to be more than a single identity or personality quirk. They must be well-rounded.

    Anyway, this post is probably super rambly and doesn't make much coherent sense
     
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  23. baboonfish

    baboonfish Member

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    There's a 'worst advice' thread here somewhere and this should go in it. FFS I bet the same person would have ripped you to shreds for trying to tell 'someone else's story'. Experimenting with different perspectives is great in many ways but it's by no means compulsory. Nobody would have heard of Bukowski if he'd tried to write books from the perspective of anyone other than a belligerent a hole, and let's all be grateful no one told JD Salinger that a middle class white boy's story had no value because at least half of us wouldn't have picked up the proverbial pen.
     
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  24. MusingWordsmith

    MusingWordsmith Shenanigan Master Contributor

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    Yeah I'm with most others on this thread of 'go write what you want'. I can see a lot of the ways my life experiences have shaped the stories I tell. I do like writing characters of other races, but I don't like making the story about current racial issues.

    There is an audience for books that tackle those kind of issues. And if that's what people wanna read, then all right. Go for it. But I won't be providing those stories, and I won't be reading them either.
     
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  25. Rimilel

    Rimilel New Member

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    Shaming someone for not writing with a diverse cast, is like shaming someone for not donating to a racial cause. Not to mention the labour cost of writing a story compared to the tenuous benefit of such a story. Why are you forcing someone else to champion your cause, in fiction, no less.
     
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