1. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road

    Hyphens & Dashes

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by fairbro, Mar 4, 2021.

    Does anyone else use a "space-hyphen-space" in place of a dash?

    For example:
    • You may think she is a liar - she isn't.
    • She might come to the party - you never know.
    However the copy editor says this should be an "n-dash" or an "m-dash". I don;t have this "dash" character on my keyboard. And I thought it was okay to make a "dash" using the space-hyphen-space. Is the reader going to disparage my book because I did not use a dash?

    This is a basketball biography, and the copyeditor did other things I thought were strange. She (or He) marked as error, sentences like this (copyeditor's "suggested correction"s are in bold): :

    4250 Jackie makes 10-of-11 ten of eleven from the line, on her way to 39 thirty-nine points, as Shawna
    4251 pours in 15 fifteen – , 14 fourteen in the second half. (my space-hyphen-space has been corrected to a comma, but in other places it is corrected to an "n-dash").
    4252 The Cats roll, 79-52 . (my hyphen is "corrected" to a dash)

    If you read a newspaper story about basketball, you will see that the scores are reported with hyphens, e.g., "Smallville was victorious, 67-66." and individual scoring is reported digitally - Bob Jones scored 12 points" - they don't write "Bob Jones scored twelve points." Sometime they don't even write out single digits - "Amber scored 16 and Amy added 6."

    I like this publisher because I trust them with the finances. They are quite ethical and honest.

    But the copyeditor is adamant - "I'm just following the Chicago Style handbook". And I don't feel like going through 5000+ "errors" and "re-correcting" them.

    Appreciate your thoughts, especially on how to handle hyphens and dashes. Thanks!
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    I believe if you don't include the spaces before and after, what you've got there is an en-dash. That's a short dash, the width of the letter N. If you're using a Microsoft-style keyboard you can type an em-dash by holding the Alt key with one hand while typing 0151 on the number-pad on the right side of the keyboard. It has to be the number-pad (but then that's a lot easier than trying to do it across the top anyway). You get this:

    word—word

    I give you the humble (but ego-inflated) em-dash! Once you learn how to do it it's very quick and easy, and you'll soon see that it looks far better than the en-dash with spaces - before - and - after. I used to do it exactly the way you did above, and now when I see those older things I cringe. It didn't bother me at the time.
     
    fairbro likes this.
  3. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Thanks for your reply. I'm wondering, I see the space-hyphen-dash in some published books, other books it's a dash. So it's one of those things that's not strictly enforced, either way is acceptable? I am writing for sports fans, and I don't want to generalize, but perhaps they are not too picky with words or formats. Going to have to see what my old grammar book says, and compare how King or Koontz does it...
     
  4. e||ement

    e||ement Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2021
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    31
    I'm not an expert of Chicago Style Guide, but I am with the Canadian Press Stylebook.

    In general terms you have a hyphen, which is used to connect words/numbers (all-star basketball player); and then you have an "en-dash" and and "em-dash" which are used to connect two ideas. Whether a publication uses EN or EM is entirely a style choice.

    The "en-dash" is the length of an "n" and is ALT + 0150 on the numeric keypad (–); the "em-dash" is the length of an "m" and is ALT + 0151 on the numeric key pad (—).
    The question of spaces before and after an en/em-dash is also just a matter of style preference by a particular publication.

    Hyphen, en-dash, em-dash: - – —

    The examples you give though are strange. I've worked in newspaper journalism for nearly 20 years and the general rule we follow is you spell out one to nine and use numbers for 10 and up. There are exceptions - specifically in your case, for sports (points and scores are always numeric).

    4250 Jackie makes 10-of-11 ten of eleven from the line, on her way to 39 thirty-nine points, as Shawna
    >>Jackie makes 10 of 11 from the line, on her way to 39 points ... is how I would edit this

    4251 pours in 15 fifteen – , 14 fourteen in the second half. (my space-hyphen-space has been corrected to a comma, but in other places it is corrected to an "n-dash").
    >> I'm not sure what the fifteen, fourteen represents here to it's hard to offer suggestions, but I would use 15-14 if this is the score (dash).

    4252 The Cats roll, 79-52 . (my hyphen is "corrected" to a dash)
    >> The Cats roll 79-52 (dash).

    However, that said, each publication/publication house does make it's own modification to whatever style guide they use, and it might be best for you to ask for a copy of their in-house style guide exceptions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
    fairbro and Xoic like this.
  5. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Thank you, I was hoping a sports writer would reply. In the news world, they seem to follow their own style guide, and the sports department seems to have their own jargon and literary shortcuts. I don't want to violate rules of English grammar punctuation and protocol, but at the same time I want to present to the reader a style he is familiar and comfortable with.

    ...that's what I'm saying. too - "(points and scores are always numeric)." I've seen less than ten go both ways in our local paper - "She scored 8," or "She tallied eight." But anything over ten is always numeric.

    My book is about 1/3 quoted newspaper stories - it would look weird if I used "twenty-eight" instead of "28" etc., alongside the newspaper stories with their "shorthand" text. Plus it would make it too long, tedious and distracting, I think.
    ...
    So you're saying that you can use an n-dash or an m-dash, but not both, in the same article, or book? My copy editor did not tell me that.

    Now that i think about it, I don;t think there really is a copy-editor, there is simply a macro, a computer algorithm, that they are using. press a keyboard button, and the macro changes all digits to written numbers -"36" ---> "thirty-six". So I will have to write a little macro to re-correct all their macro-generated "errors." :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2021
  6. e||ement

    e||ement Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2021
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    31
    It’s unusual for a newspaper, at least, to use both en- and em-dashes. Usually the publication sticks to one or the other. However, like I say, each publication/publishing house can make its own set of rules or exceptions to rules.

    For the sake of newspaper reporting, the idea behind using numerics over words for numbers is purely driven from a need to use as few characters as possible on the page - at least back in the day where print was the main vehicle for news.
     
    fairbro likes this.
  7. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,998
    Likes Received:
    3,691
    I've had publishers use the spaced em dash (" — "), but it was never just a hyphen in between there. That is a professional style, and it's fine. You just need to be consistent. I feel it's far more common to have unspaced em dashes.

    I would space out all of the hyphens, if that's easier. Then I would do a Ctrl+H mass-replace of " - " with "—" (em dash).

    From what I've seen, en dashes don't get used in much except for dates and scores. You're not supposed to use them as sentence punctuation. They're always joining numbers. But I guess a house style could override that or anything, really.
     
    fairbro likes this.
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    I would do both with em-dashes:
    • You may think she is a liar—she isn't.
    • She might come to the party—you never know.
    This is commonly done when the second part refers to what was said in the first part.


    They're also used to set off phrases within a sentence:

    • That kind of light bulb—the so-called curly fluorescent—lasts much longer and uses less energy.
    On the numbers. what are you writing? A story? Numbers are often used in sports or newspapers etc partly for the reason @e||ement gave—brevity, and also to make the scores instantly recognizable. You want them to stand out in an article about a game, they're the important thing. In a story not so much, stories are more about words than numbers. Unless maybe you're writing about a math genius or something.

    The general rule I've heard, which sounds pretty sound to me, is spell the numbers out until 100, then use numerals. It depends though, there are some mitigating circumstances.
     
  9. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2021
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,359
    Not in proper typesetting. That should be an em dash, with no spaces.
     
    fairbro likes this.
  10. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Yes, exactly. Here in Kansas, it's not unusual for a town of 500 people to have its own newspaper and own library. But even in larger towns, where I went to the local newspaper, there might be one sports writer, and he had his own style and his own rules, different from the style and rules in the next town.

    If I stick with the space-hyphen-space instead of the dash, is my book going to be panned? I think the typical sports reader does not care, but I am worried about getting bad reviews for not looking professional.
     
  11. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Maybe that's where i got off-track, because many of the newspaper offices I visited and got permission to copy their stories, they were tiny newspapers, sometime just one person, who would write as he/she pleased
     
  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Why so much talk about newspapers? This is a book you're working on, right? You should probably be paying attention to book conventions.
     
  13. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Writing a biography, which follows the player from town-to-town, throughout her high-school career.

    Bushville pulls away in the second half, and at the final buzzer, the score is a lopsided 72-46. Janis pops in 10 field goals and is 8-of-10 from the charity stripe, for 28 points; she is labeled Bushvilles's “freshman sensation” by the Dodge City Tribune. Senior veterans Laura Staudinger, with 12, and Tamara Klug, with 15, also score in double figures. Crosby bags 21 for the Vikings.

    That's a little tedious, maybe, or boring, because the reader is being hit with a lot of statistics.

    But spell out all the numerics, I think would make it downright stultifying.

    Multiply that above paragraph x 4 years x 30 games a season...
     
  14. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    I was thinking the same. Basketball fans would probably love it, but I'm not sure anybody else would.

    What's the main focus of the story? I mean, is it more about scores and statistics, or a person who's also a basketball player?
     
  15. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    I wanted to make the whole book like an ongoing news story. I'm not the "writer", I'm just a "reporter" bringing you the news. It's a narrative, the only "plot" is the star's yearly confrontation, in the state championship game, against a short pair of twins who always seem to come out on top.

    It's maybe 20% newspaper stories, 80% my narrative.

    For example, a lot of stuff like this in it (Sorry I changed all the names):



    From the Dodge City Tribune, Sunday, March 13, 1998, Page 7:

    Smith’s 51 points fall just short

    Mustangs fall into third place contest

    By John J. Jones, Assistant Sports Editor

    Garden City – “Wow!”

    That’s how Smallville girls basketball coach Clint Rockland summed up 5-foot-8 freshman Sarah Smith's 53-point performance in the Class 3A state tournament semifinals Friday night against Olathe.
    “That was one of the best performances I’ve ever seen, boy or girl,” he said. "She...
    (another 60 lines in the story) ...

    The cop(y) :) editor even has problem with 5-foot-8, she "corrects" it to "five-foot-eight".
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  16. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Instead of the usual sports biography - the star did this, the star did that, the star breaks records, the star is so great - I tried to make a protagonist-antagonist thing out of it. There is the star and her team, then, 30 miles down the road, the team driven by the diminutive but incredible twins. These rivals both go 25-0 during the regular season and meet in the state championship game, every year, freshman thru senior. One team gets on a winning streak that seems to never end, so I added a Stephen King like thing - the Spirit of the Winning Streak. It is like a runaway train, it can't be stopped. It's a greedy spirit, like a kid with a bag of candy he does not want to share. The winning streak speaks like a brat: "More for ME! I want to win AGAIN!"

    I was worried about the pacing and the book being boring, so I mixed in the rivalry with the other team and the Winning Streak Spirit. Funny, I was in the middle of nowhere, stopped at an old gas station and going inside to pay, saw one wall plastered with newspaper article cutouts. The elderly proprietor asked me what I was doing in town, and I told him about writing a story about the star. He pointed with pride to the wall and said, "Yeah, sure she was the greatest player ever, but she never beat our girls." o_O ? Driving away, into that village where I was going to do an interview with the coach of the rival team, it clicked into place - boom! Here's my protagonist-antagonist angle! This will make the book work.

    That is, if I can prevent the copy editor from making it stultifyingly boring. :supersleepy:

    The old gas-station owner is in a nursing home now, and I need to get him a copy of it, soon. He will love it, and I owe him big time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Ok, I begin to see what you're up to here. And I'm glad you added that last part, without that it was starting to sounds like too much newspaper article and little to no actual story. Now I understand why you want to use numerals rather than spell out the numbers, and I agree with you. You're doing it partly through the articles, and those parts should feel and read as much as possible like the actual articles.

    Kind of like Dracula, which if I understand right was told entirely through journal and diary entries, letters, and the like. I haven't read the actual novel (Dracula I mean) but I have read a graphic novel version of it, featuring an abridged version of it with fully painted watercolor illustrations, and I thought it worked really well. But part of the reason it did work so well is because the diary and journal entries and letters etc were written in such a way that it got across a lot of feeling and some really good details and atmosphere. It was a Victorian novel after all, and people wrote like that in their letters and diaries, none of this truncated text-speak like we use today in emails.

    I'm just not sure how much of that kind of feeling can come across in a series of sports articles. But of course that doesn't concern your actual point for this thread. Like I said, I do agree with you that the articles should look and feel like actual newspaper articles.
     
    fairbro likes this.
  18. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,137
    Likes Received:
    19,761
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Known as an "epistolary" novel, which seems to be what the OP is doing. It's a great technique when done right, mainly (I think) because it ping pongs POVs from first to third to omni and back, each adding their own piece of the story.

    Check out "The Last Days of Summer" by Steven Kluger. Also a sports based epistolary novel. Baseball instead of Basketball.
     
    fairbro and Xoic like this.
  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Maybe there could be some other epistolary entries of different kinds? Diary or journal entries or blog posts with comments and responses etc by some of the players—not only the main characters but also supporting players and coaches, maybe some fans etc. This way in addition to the "just the facts ma'am" approach of the articles there can be more of the stuff Homer mentioned, first person, third person, different people's thoughts and ideas etc. Arguments among fans online.

    Maybe a reporter who's fascinated by the story and following it avidly (as you yourself did) and include some of his writing that's not just the articles—his own fevered conjectures and attempts to get more of the story through encounters like the one you gave above with the guy in the gas station. Maybe some parts about the reporter as a character, showing some of his life along the way. This would bring a much deeper level of humanity to it all.

    You could also write about some of the family or friends of the main characters, who follow them to games and maybe talk to their opposite numbers on the other teams. Like the mothers of the rival players get together sometimes for shopping trips or in a sorts bar and talk or something .
     
  20. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    I know I have read an "epistolary" novel somewhere, I'm almost sure it was King or Koontz, but maybe somewhere else. The author made repeated use of newspaper stories to keep the reader updated on what was going on from a wider perspective than what was going on from the local character's POV. Maybe not throughout the novel, but many insertions.
     
    Xoic likes this.
  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Hopefully you see my post made a minute prior to yours above. :D
     
  22. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,137
    Likes Received:
    19,761
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    King used epistolary interludes fairly frequently, I think. There was that online novel he wrote--The Plant--back before ebooks where a thing, and that was entirely epistolary IIRC.

    (and see what I did with the em-dashes around "The Plant?" It's a parenthetical thought bracketed inside the sentence, though admittedly, I'm too lazy to properly format it and just leave the double dashes there)
     
    Xoic likes this.
  23. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Xoic, way ahead of you. :) I have each chapter sandwiched with a paragraph or two, quotes from rival players, teammates, coaches and the star, also from fans, even some comments from her parents. I've seen that "quotes" technique somewhere else, too. It's a great technique, I think - gives the reader a break from the narrative. The story goes with the details of one team's perfect season, then the rival team's perfect season, so I tried to add a lot of different angles, to break up the tedium. And the Spirit of the Winning Streak is also constantly interrupting, demanding more candy (victories).

    I don't put myself into this, it's not for me, except after the end of the book, I have a sort of addendum. I spend a Saturday trying to imitate the star's daily practice routine.
     
    Xoic likes this.
  24. fairbro

    fairbro Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2021
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    On the Yellow Brick Road
    Homer, were you as upset as I was about the "ending" to The Plant? I was in Russia at the time when I read it. I had only the computer, most of King's books were available at the bookstore, but in Russian, of course. I found "The Plant" online, some hacker had put it up. I thought "Cool! A new King story!" But, well, you know what happened. I went to King's website, but he has always remained mum about it.
     
  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,455
    Likes Received:
    13,500
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    Haha, ok, this is sounding like a really decent story—much different from the initial impression I got of nothing but sports articles.
     
    fairbro likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice