Not good for kids?

One of my beta readers just got back to me on the book I've been working on for the past couple years, Henry Rider: Clown Hunter, and she had some interesting feedback that I haven't heard before.

So, in one part of the book, a character gets hazed while joining Henry's gang by having to run through a field of mushrooms that shoot spores that make you hallucinate your worst fears.

This is meant to be a book for middle grade to young adult readers, but my beta reader thinks this might turn off a lot of parents. Her exact words were "It's generally considered pretty evil to make someone take hallucinogenic drugs to join your buddies club."

Now, I didn't write it to make it sound like they were doing drugs. This is just a prank that they pull on their friend. A prank that ends up backfiring, dragging Henry in with him, and her growing as a character when she has to face her fears to rescue her friend. But admittedly the fact remains that they are hallucinating because they inhaled spores from a toxic mushroom.

What do you guys think? Is that too much for a kids book?

 

That part is gone. I've rewritten that whole plot element to be about something else. But I've also heard that the prose and dialogue and stuff is more suited to middle grade than YA.

 

"Generally considered pretty evil."

Lovely. I guess it's settled, then? Apart from the fact that this comment is a 100% subjective opinion of one individual? It also has no substance nor meaning. Move on and do not invite this person to read your stuff again.

I'm a parent of two and I think your book sounds rather fun. Sadly my kids can't read yet

On a serious note, I understand that somewhere there you'd want a book both published and sold... Possible to have more beta readers to see whether others might take issue with it as well?

 

I never said it was settled. That's why I posted on here, to get a few more opinions on it.

 

When I read the story a long time ago it sound more like it would be appropriate for YA. You are sealing g with mature themes like drugs

 

Okay, but does this have to be taken like they're using drugs? It's like poison ivy, getting a rash from it doesn't mean you're using it like a drug.

 

I'm currently researching shamanism, and it's quite common in cultures that practice it to expose children to mild hallucinogenic plants because of course that's how you find and bond with your spirit animal. Otherwise how will the poor child make it through the trials and travails of childhood?

It's only modern Western civilization with its fear of all things spiritual and intuitive where hallucinogens are considered evil, but alcohol is widely indulged in (it has no beneficial effects and causes countless deaths and fights). One expands awareness, the other shuts it down. Of course the hallucinogens among the indigenous cultures are consumed in a ritual ceremony in a group of helpful and protective elders who know exactly how to assist people through the transition. They don't hide it in brown paper bags or plastic baggies and go out and get baked and hide from the police.

 

Like Homer said, the age appropriateness would really depend on HOW it's written. Without any further knowledge of what's in your story, I also am going to lean towards the assumption that it might be more of a YA novel than MG.

Take a look at the "Hunger Games" novel - Katniss trips out HARD when getting stung by bioengineered wasps. And she also hallucinates some of her own worst fears/memories. That doesn't mean she was "taking drugs". I'd view this scene of your story in the same way - the existence of something in your world that has these effects that people can randomly come in contact with. Not the same as, say, in the movie "Batman Begins" where Bruce inhales a hallucinogen as part of a rite (see Xoic's comment about about controlled environments) in order to face his worst fears. In general, whether it's something taken willingly or contacted by accident, the whole idea of "plant/animal/drug giving the protagonist insight into themselves as a person" trope is always interesting.

 

There's no point in asking us. Our opinions don't matter, because we're not your readers. It's their opinion that will matter, and you won't get a chance to argue the case with them.

You'll have to judge for yourself, and with the help of your beta readers, whether the scene is age-appropriate, and whether it can be interpreted as involving hallucinogenic drugs. If multiple readers tell you that, then perhaps there's something in it. If not, forget this one opinion and move on.

 

Well, without having read the work the only thing I would suggest is to do your own "investigation" into this scene of your novel. This is just one person's opinion and some parent's can be protective of their children. What is suitable for one child may be unsuitable for another. Give it to parents of your intended age group and ask them what they think.

If it never publishes then you have no problems. If it does, the publishers will choose to keep it or remove it anyway. I wouldn't worry right now.

 

Hehe, Adam, sorry I was sarcastic. Just as Naomasa298 says, unless you have several readers stating their concern, maybe just move on from that one opinion... This person's comment that you quoted is extremely vague. "Evil" is not a forbidden theme, especially if it leads to a lesson learned. From what you describe, I do not see a problem - but I haven't read your book, so it's impossible to really say more. (And I do not know how conservative your target group is, this might differ from country to country)

 

It's supposed to be fantasy. I believe your reader is projecting themselves into the role of the MC and giving you tgeir personal feelings as feedback. In hazing, the group wants to know that You'll do as you're toldeven if it seems harmful to yourself. Of course fear inducing hallucinogens aren't dangerous unless you have a propensity for self harm or preexisting health conditions that make that dangerous. Rather than changing the haze, perhaps making the daunting task worth the reward? Jyst foid for thought.

 

Why are you even writing MG? Your natural inclination seem to be much more towards horror and mature audiences. Did something in particular make you think this book should be a MG? Is there any reason why you can't write this for YA or Adult instead?

I mean, I understand writing for different ages as an exercise or a challenge. But this just sounds like you're in the wrong age category. Why make life difficult for yourself and task yourself with writing an entire novel for an age you're quite clearly not inclined towards, at least when it comes to ideas you have?

I teach 3rd grade - so I'm bang in your demographic of MG. Right now we're reading Socks, a cat with white feet. The entire last chapter involves description of how he pounces on puffs of cotton and the most exciting, "climactic" moments of the book include: Socks nipping his owner's leg so there was a drop of blood; Socks getting into a fight with another cat; and lastly, the baby blocked the door to the bedroom so mummy couldn't get in while baby and Socks played and laughed happily together, making a mess.

My next book is either Charlotte's Web or Mr Popper's Penguins. Yes, penguins. A whole book about penguins. Adventures amongst the penguins.

And here you are writing about breathing in toxic spores, joining gangs, and previously (though I know you changed it), drilling holes in people's heads. Was it also you who had a really creepy idea about laughter? Sucking people's laughter out or something, that is decidedly far scarier than the Monsters Inc version?

I'd have to read it to tell you, but at first glance, I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable letting my kids read what you've described. I'd probably consult the school leaders and expect a negative answer.

To add, if it's MG, it's the parents who will be buying this. What would a mother or a father say? If you had child, would you let your 8 year old read this book?

 

I'm shooting for the same audience as Harry Potter or Percy Jackson. Action and adventure, maybe a couple "holy crap, that was dark!" moments, but nothing that's going to make it inappropriate for kids. It's all in how you describe things. Smashing a monster's head with a giant hammer could be gruesome and gory, or it could just go splat and that's the end of it. Hallucinating from toxic mushrooms could be advocating drug use, or it could be the magical world equivalent of dating your friend to run through a poison ivy patch in their underwear.

And I almost always write for kids, or at least teenagers. That's the audience my style is best suited for.

 

I'm pretty certain Potter is YA, and so is Percy Jackson? As I said, what you've described would probably be fine for YA. I mean, look at Hunger Games.

There's nothing about hallucinating from toxic mushrooms that's equivalent to running through a poison ivy patch. For a start, ivy patches don't affect your mind. For seconds, mushrooms are a known drug, unlike ivy patches which are merely a poisonous plant. You cannot divorce what you're writing from the general social culture at large and how society would interpret certain things based on how these things are generally thought of or used in real life.

And it really doesn't matter how you wanna defend it - at MG, it's the parents who will decide whether their kid gets to read that book or not, and it's the school librarian deciding whether they'd like to stock this kind of book in the school library. If I were you, ask a school librarian or several - because those are the gatekeepers at the MG level. If they say fine, then I stand corrected.

But the other thing is, have you had any luck querying this book? Have you had any full requests? Because if you haven't, that could be yet another sign that you're marketing it to the wrong demographic. Also, once you do get an agent and a publisher, they can ask you to rewrite it for a different audience. I've seen it mentioned on writing groups that YA novels were rewritten for Adult before a publisher took the book.

Do you have any suitable comp titles? Because again, if you know you have a list of like 5 or 10 books published in the recent 3 years or so that all have similarly violent or questionable scenes as those in your book, and they're all marketed as MG and been successful, then again, I stand corrected.

But I wouldn't push on ahead just because it's what you want to write. The public at large might not agree with you on what you deem to be suitable for a particular age group, and as a mother, I can tell you parents can be greatly protective of what enters their children's minds. If it's simply questionable, it's often enough to have the book struck off the list for some parents. Schools will want to play it all the safer than parents. If you're writing for publication, then you must bear all this in mind, and change your story accordingly, that's all.

Good luck. If I were you, target YA more solidly than MG - I think at YA your scenes would be all right because the age range is way larger and can stretch into adult. Teenagers also have stronger buying power and are less policed/restricted by their guardians on their reading material. In fact, if it's got questionable scenes, I can imagine that'd be the very appeal of the book to teens.

 

Yeah I've never read Percy Jackson, so it's more just my impression. Harry Potter - you're right I've definitely known 9-11 year olds read that, but they tend to be high level and avid readers, which is actually not the average pupil. I don't know to what extent teaching mostly proficient but not necessarily native children (or native in a foreign environment) impact upon this impression I have though. I also don't know if I'm comparing apples with oranges a little because the schools I've been in teach different national curricula. A lot of variables here!

 

I'm less concerned about the notion of inhaling mushroom spores than I am about the concept of hazing in general. I just read an article a couple of days ago about a college student who was forced to drink enough booze as part of a hazing ritual that he suffered acute alcohol poisoning and has been declared brain-dead. He was being kept "alive" only so his parents could arrange for his organs to be donated. The fraternity in question was operating outside of the unicversity's rules and has now been banned from the campus as well as shut down by its national, parent organization.

I realize that I'm an olde pharte, but I think kids' minds are impressionable. (Check that -- I'm a trained clinical hypnotherapist. I KNOW kids' minds are impressionable.) Hazing is dangerous and stupid. Personally, I don't think it has any place in a book aimed at either YA or MG but especially not MG.

 

That's a bit of an overreaction, isn't it? Hazing is just a practical joke, something kids have been doing forever. Labeling them all as bad because of one that went wrong is like saying that all scary stories are bad because one girl stabbed her friend because she thought Slenderman was real.

 

I personally believe hazing is a good thing.
It has a purpose, to weed out anyone who isn't strong enough for a particular group or task. That's not a bad thing.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I don't think it's encouraging drug use, and a lot of it is how you word it and describe it. You don't have to go into super dark, gory detail, it can be put in pretty simple terms that are glorifying it, and I believe that would be fine.
I don't believe in shielding children from everything awful, I would let my kid read this with supervision to make sure she she didn't get the impression that drugs are good or anything.

 

I think the problem with hazing is that people use the word very differently. Personally I wouldn't call having someone do something they will need to do should they be accepted for the role hazing, I'd call it a perfectly reasonable aptitude test, one which is employed in all kinds of situations. Hazing to me is more like getting someone to do something which has no bearing on their fitness for a particular role, but is only to show how badly they want it (e.g. stereotypical hazing rituals at fraternities and sororities, where pledges are made to do things which they will never have to do again, purely for the entertainment of existing members).

I think Adam's situation sounds like the first scenario, and so is perfectly acceptable and even sensible, considering the scenario.

 

I'm another one who doesn't like the idea of hazing in its more typical usage, where it isn't directly related to the task the person will be required to perform once accepted into the group. In that usage, it stops being a useful test and is just a demonstration of the unequal power dynamics of the situation, i.e. the person controlling entry to the group has power over the person wanting to join. Just because 'kids have been doing it forever' doesn't make it a good idea. As an adult, if I were reading a book and a character thought making a someone else do something unpleasant and/or humiliating just to show how much they wanted to be accepted into that character's group was a good idea, it wouldn't put me off the book but it would certainly put me off that character, in a way which would be difficult to come back from unless the character eventually changed their minds.