1. labelab

    labelab Member

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    My relationship with writing is toxic

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by labelab, Apr 20, 2021.

    For the longest time, all I ever wanted was to finish writing a book. A book that meant something to me, a book that was beautifully written and perfect and ready to be released into the world.

    That’s been my dream since I was 5 years old.

    That dream has gotten tough, and it’s wavered, but I’ve never given up on it.

    13 years later, the furthest I’ve ever gotten in a book was just under 30 000 words, a feat I’ve managed 3 times. But I’ve never been able to finish a book. I’ve never been able to finish a short story. I just start things and never ever finish them. Because the self doubt is just too strong.

    When I say self-doubt, I mean really, really bad. It’s something that’s followed me around my whole life, always feeling inadequate regardless of what I do. And with writing, that’s really hard, because it’s something I (sometimes) love, it’s my creative outlet, it’s something that allows me to express myself and connect with others. But I’ve ruined it for myself. Just like with everything I’ve tried to be good at, I always find a way to convince myself I’m terrible, and I get so overcome with doubt that I eventually stop, taking months and years off at a time.

    It makes me so stressed, because when I’m not writing or my writing isn’t up to my standards, I get extremely anxious and start to doubt whether I’m talented or intelligent or that I have anything to show of myself.

    I don’t know how to keep writing and not doubt myself. I’ve had this problem for six years; before that, I never had issues with writing, and felt that I was the best writer in the world.

    This isn’t the fault of the writing. It’s my fault. But I don’t want to go ahead and give up everything I might love or be good at because, when I’m not good at it, I lose all my sense of worth. It gets really really bad. I haven’t written in a while and I started again today, and now I can’t sleep because I’m worried that I’m worthless.

    Have any of you struggled with this? How do I get around it? I’m sorry for all of this, I just feel like I need to get it out. Thank you so much.
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    :friend:It isn't your fault. Honestly, from what you've said (here and in the past) it sounds like you've got an inferiority complex. That's often implanted by overly demanding parents who hold you to impossible standards, and then that demanding voice gets internalized. You need to understand that's what it is (if that is in fact what it is, I can't be sure) and work on forgiving yourself and understanding how wrong those demands and accusations are. They're just self-punishing illusions, they don't reflect reality at all.

    When you're feeling really bad like that, you might need to just take a break, not worry about writing, and come back to it later, when the pressure is off or less. If you keep coming back to some of the stories you'll be able to finish them. Just take it a step at a time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  3. NobodySpecial

    NobodySpecial Contributor Contributor

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    Justice Louis Brandeis was the one who said there is no great writing, only great rewriting. Everyone gets to go through periods of self grandeur and self loathing. It’s called normal. Your choices are to let it get the better of you, or not; to surrender or battle back; to cry mercy, or cry havoc.
     
  4. N.Scott

    N.Scott Active Member

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    This doesn't make you bad. This is just one of the writing phases you will go through. There're lots of writing phases in a writer's journey. Struggling to come up with story ideas, stressing about language skills, failing to establish a writing routine, etc. Going through these phases takes time, so don't be too hard on yourself just because you are not there yet. And don't let anyone discourage you because they are there. People are different; everyone's pace is going to be different, too.

    I know it's painful. I can feel it through your words. Hang in there. Self-doubt isn't fun, but please don't be too afraid or ashamed of them.

    I think taking time off is all right. I don't remember where I saw it, but it goes something like this: taking care of yourself is productive.


    edited for typos.
     
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  5. labelab

    labelab Member

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    thank you, i really do appreciate it. you’re right about the impossible standards aha, that’s something i’m trying to process and get past. instead of working on improving my writing, i think i’ll try working on myself a little more :) thank you x
     
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  6. labelab

    labelab Member

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    thank you so much, the support and advice means a lot :)
     
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  7. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    For the longest time, all I ever wanted was to finish writing a book. A book that meant something to me, a book that was beautifully written and perfect and ready to be released into the world.

    If my addition is right, you are 18. Some folks manage beautifully written books by the time they're 18. Most don't. I sure the heck didn't. Congratulations on writing 90,000 words. That's good practice. Every word you write is good practice. Write 100,000 words, good, bad, and indifferent, then write another 100,000. Doesn't even matter all that much what you write, just write. Tell stories that amuse you or make you cry. Write about your dog eating the canary or the difficulty of finding anchovies for your pizza. Heck, I dunno, write about toenail fungus. Just write.

    I don’t know how to keep writing and not doubt myself. I’ve had this problem for six years; before that, I never had issues with writing, and felt that I was the best writer in the world.

    Congratulations on your mature insight and welcome to reality. You were not the best writer in the world. Having attained enlightenment on that point, you can now go forth and improve.

    Don't use self doubt as an excuse for not writing. Don't use "I've never finished anything" as an excuse. It does not matter whether you are talented or intelligent. People who are neither turn out pretty good stuff after they've practiced enough. It does not matter if you doubt yourself; thinking you were the world's best writer was far more limiting. You will never write to your own standards until you practice enough, so instead of bemoaning your lack of excellence, work toward excellence by simply putting words on paper over and over and over. Don't judge what you're writing until you've written half a million words, give or take a hundred thousand. It does not matter how good or bad those words are because most writers have to write a lot of junk before they get to the good stuff. Give yourself permission to write the worst junk in the world, toss it all in the fireplace some cold winter night, and write some more. One of these days, you will read over something you've written and think, "Holy cow, that is good," and it will be good and not just as a function of a child's ego.

    For what it is worth, I found writing between 15 and 25 especially frustrating because I wanted to write something deep and wonderful and meaningful and frankly, I didn't have the life experience for the things I wanted to write. I didn't even know exactly what those things were which is why I didn't finish the first dozen books I started. Had I written about life experiences I did have, I'd have been far better off, but I discounted those things as being silly and juvenile. Silly me. I finally wrote those juvenile experiences down as fiction when I was in my early 40s and when I was done with half a dozen rewrites, I read at the book and thought, "That's not too bad. It might even be good." And then I wrote something else, and something else after that. That's what writers do.

    You might find encouragement in Julia Cameron's books. The first one is The Artist's Way. You can probably find a copy at the library if you don't want to buy one, but it is a relatively inexpensive book and might be very helpful for what is ailing you. Good luck, and I will look forward to reading the beautiful short story or book you will produce someday.
     
  8. Rizona

    Rizona Member

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    I would suggest that you read into Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT).
    You can find some online resources or there are many books available.
    It has been proven to be helpful in the treatment of anxiety and perfectionism.
    It's about questioning your thoughts and beliefs so that you can ultimately see that, far from helping you, they are holding you back and making you anxious and miserable.
    You seem like you are ready to really tackle this issue. That's a huge first step! Best of luck.
     
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  9. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    Exactly! Writing is your creative outlet. why do you have to be good at it? Why is being good the first thing it comes to your mind (as requirement for writing) when you think about writing? I feel the same about writing being a way to express myself and connect with others, which is not about being good at something, it is about learning to open up and connect with yourself, being sincere and honest with yourself, and whatever else might mean to you. It is a journey.

    With time and practice you will also become good at it and consistently good at it, but it requires a lot of practice, like anything. Pianists don't wake up one day and play wonderfully a piece of music just because they feel strongly about the music inside themselves. They had to practice for years to reach the level of craft that allowed them to play in a way they feel matches their emotions and desire to connect with the music and others. Writing is a craft as well, it takes time to learn to write well. Some people can write naturally well, but they are the exception, not the norm, and even the best writers go through multiple rounds of editing to make their sentences the ones we love to read. Writing is a process that requires your dedication. If you cannot detach from the idea that you want to be good at writing as primary requirement for you to continue writing, I would recommend thinking of writing as something you can improve, something you can become good at, rather than be good at from the start. Play with sentences and paragraphs, see how you can make them more like you want them to be, for instance.

    Hope you manage to find a balance that will make you continue to nurture your love for writing :superwink:
     
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  10. Javelineer

    Javelineer Active Member

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    Well, this post alone shows that you're at least passable in quality as a writer. So...

    My advice? Go read the most poorly-written book, with the most idiotic plot imaginable, from the biggest hack of an author you can possibly find, that nonetheless managed to get published and gain at least a marginal amount of critical acclaim. Convince yourself that you could do a better job if you really wanted, and then go do it.

    Or better yet, find a bad book from a GOOD writer. Or a flawed book from someone whom you think of as being a mixed bag in the realm of talents and shortcomings. Convince yourself that you can do at least as good, and then go do it.
     
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  11. Javelineer

    Javelineer Active Member

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    No kidding.

    I mean, 90,000 words at the age of 18 evens out to 5,000 words a year. That even in the years when she was more focused on all the "learning how to talk" and "learning how not to poop herself" stuff? That's... frankly pretty impressive? Heck of a lot more impressive than anything I was doing at her age.
    [​IMG]
    (Pictured: what I was doing at her age.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
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  12. JayClassical

    JayClassical Member

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    Everything is fine even in your worst possible situation. The odds are against all creatives, if you can find peace in what you can't control, that's the best foundation to work on your craft and give freedom to your mind to go where it wants. When you hit the wall, it's tough but it takes a lot of evolution to master anything and that's going to be painful no matter what. The right kind of spirit can give unlimited energy. Don't let yours be jailed by your ego. Sufferings all part of the game.
     
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  13. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yup. And it gets worse. Much worse. Wait until you don't have the benefit of time, hope, or illusion of endless possibility.

    Listen, if you're really 18, you probably also aren't a millionaire, own a home, have a successful career, drive a Beamer, of have grandchildren yet. If your definition of toxicity involves not achieving things without decades of hard work, dedication, and setbacks, you're going to need a hazmat suit. Not to sound like a jerkface, but what makes you so special that you don't have to suffer the frustrations of modern life like the rest of us? Anything worthwhile takes time and multiple failures. The Gods only smile on those who persevere and choose not to quit despite all the evidence to the contrary.

    Just keep writing.
     
  14. labelab

    labelab Member

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    sorry... i was just trying to get help for something i've struggled with a lot, which is turning something i love into something i hate because of the expectations i put upon myself. i wasn't expecting a book to write itself or anything.
     
  15. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    No need to apologize, and I'm sorry if what I said sounded harsh, but this is one of those things were the "hate" is an important part of the picture. Anything worth doing should be hard and a have a hate component. Like how people love/hate their jobs, spouses, kids, etc.... If it were all about the love, it would easy to do and probably not very fulfilling. Take, oh, video games for example. Lots of fun but not terribly fulfilling in the accomplishment department. They're not exactly bereft either, but anything a 10 year old can accomplish with the same degree of efficacy as a 70 year old doesn't exactly qualify as an achievement (pun intended). And I'm not a religious man but I definitely believe in area-specific Gods--like the Writing Gods, Restaurant Gods, etc--who do nothing but test you and place inconvenient obstacles at inconvenient times. The test (like Job) is to see whether you can maintain faith when you have every reason not to.
     
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  16. labelab

    labelab Member

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    thank you, i do get where you're coming from. faith despite the circumstances is something that resonates with me too, and if writing was all sunshine and rainbows, i'm sure my achievements wouldn't mean as much as they do.
     
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  17. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Unreasonable expectations appear to be what my son used to call your "major malfunction." Dump the unreasonable expectations and quit wasting your writing time and emotional energy.

    Two entities exist inside our writer brains: the creator and the editor. The creator is the one that goes off on flights of fancy and pours out lashings of words and thoughts and phrases. The editor is the one that sits with crossed arms and says, "That's a run-on sentence. Your main character is one dimensional. Your spelling sucks and were you standing behind the door when they taught eighth grade grammar?" They don't coexist well though both are essential to good writing. When you are practicing writing (and it is all practice), lock the editor in a room with a pile of crossword puzzles and let her entertain herself while the creator part of your brain writes without criticism or second guessing itself. When the creator needs a rest or is facing a deadline, it's time for the creator to go into the room with the crossword puzzles and the editor to come out and bring order to the mass of writing. Right now, I suggest you leave the editor alone for awhile and concentrate on being the creator.
     
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  18. hyacinthe

    hyacinthe Banned

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    okay first of all tons of published writers gave up on a manuscript at around 30k words. We even call it the 30k wall. climbing over that obstacle is a skill. very few people have it when they're first starting out.

    Secondly, believe me when I tell you that you need therapy to help you with the level of self-doubt you are experiencing. it took me years to get healed enough to manage writing a novel, and I still have to fight against it even today.
     
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  19. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah. First tried/dreamed of writing a book when I was maybe 12 or so? Managed to even end up studying creative writing in college. That's when the real frustration of not finishing a story really started. It gave me a lot of negative feelings. That kept up until I was 24. I then took a break from even thinking about writing for about three years.

    But then I got a specific dream/goal/drive and started writing again. Took another year or two of building a habit, learning novel specific writing, and researching... Then I finally finished something. Then another and another. It's no longer a question anymore if I can finish a novel, just how long it'll take. It's been a hard journey to get here.

    I guess my takeaway is you need a concrete, realistic, and obtainable goal. At least in my case I did. I realized I could and would self publish and therefore the only thing holding me back was finishing. That really changed things for me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  20. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    This. To get a longer story to work you need to learn about structure, otherwise you get lost and don't know how to dig your way out.
     
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  21. marshipan

    marshipan Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, I agree that was so important. I worked off of premade outlines the first few books I finished. Those essentially give you a goal for each chapter and break it all up into acts for you.
     
  22. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    I want to add that although the OP and others are talking about specific issues like self-doubt, we shouldn't forget that writing is in itself a struggle. To me this thought is comforting, because I grew up being fed the idea that there were only two (opposing) types of artists: the idyllic artist, who just creates flawless pieces in a whirlwind of ecstatic emotions, and the tormented artist, who is trapped within a devilish creative spirit doomed to suffer in order to create. Anyone in between was just doodling, as a hobby. I think I transferred this scheme to writing at some point as an adolescent.

    There is no writer, including those whose writing we recognize as emotionally powerful and who we consider masters of the craft, who doesn't make an effort to sit at their desk to make themselves write. Writing is not as natural as the idea of "natural" we have built within society. Of course, in the end the rewards are greater than the effort made, but one has to learn to find that value along the process on one's own, in nurturing a habit, in discovering a particularly beautiful sentence, in relating to one's characters, in expressing one's doubts in which others can see themselves, etc.

    EDIT: wow, don't I talk like I know it all about writing?!?! :supershock:
     
  23. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Those are both myths created through movies and in the popular imagination by non artists. They're based on this image that it either comes easily or not at all, that sheer inborn talent is all that matters. They ignore the hard work, the study and practice that's necessary. Yes, talent matters, but it's not a necessity. We all have varying levels of it (and if a person has little talent for one thing they'll have talents for other things). But talent without skills is useless. It can only create something like abstract art or crude childish Art Brut.

    Becoming a writer is like any other vocation, it requires study and work and discipline in order for the magic to happen. I don't know why people have this weird idea that somehow art is magic that a person either already has or doesn't. Nothing else is like that, why would art be? I always have to shake my head when people look at my drawings and say "I wish I could draw, I can't even draw a stick figure." Dude... I wasn't born able to do this, I studied hard and learned it year by year!

    But anybody who starts to get serious about any kind of art figures that out. It's just weird that the general public doesn't understand it. I think it's because their understanding comes mostly from movies, and in a movie they don't want to spend time showing artists struggling and learning, they just want to cut right to the act of creation. Plus it's a powerful romantic image to think art is like magic that some people just have an innate ability for.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  24. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Oh, and another factor is the Dunning/Kruger effect.

    "The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people beginners believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities." —and to underestimate those of highly capable artists.

    It's only as you start to learn about your art and develop some skills that you can start to see your own skill levels and those of the professionals realistically. I've seen absolute beginners who honestly thought they were better than trained professionals, and unable to see the flaws in their work. But early in the learning process you start to see past that.

    So the general public, who has never had any kind of training in art, is still on the wrong side of the Dunning/Kruger line.
     
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  25. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    One more thing I want to add—one of the most important things to learn early on is how to give and take critique. I was lucky, this was taught well at the community college I went to (where nothing else about art was taught at all really, they just let us struggle). You have to learn not to take it personally, to accept any criticism that can help you and to reject any that can't (but you don't have to say you're rejecting it, just thank the person and move on).

    I had a bad habit in my art classes of doing an assignment the night before it was due, then staying up all night with a pot of coffee and going in on critique day bleary-eyed. I'd feel alright until I got go class and walked in to pin my piece up on the wall. Everybody was sitting facing the wall where we pin up drawings, and you had to walk in front of the gauntlet with all eyes on you. That's when suddenly all the missed sleep came crashing in and I felt like I needed to be in bed.

    On days like that I was emotionally weak and criticism would affect me too much. Once I got a good night's sleep I was fine and could take the criticism well, in the spirit it was intended, but right then and there it hurt.
     
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