1. sdfasdfasdfasdf

    sdfasdfasdfasdf New Member

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    Advanced mechanical tech in mostly medieval setting? Could that be possible?

    Discussion in 'Fantasy' started by sdfasdfasdfasdf, Apr 12, 2021.

    Could you have advanced mechanical engineering without, say, advanced electrical engineering accompanying it? Let me talk about this world I'm writing real quick.

    I'm mostly writing worldbuilding/lore, no real plot as of now. I try to find holes in the lore because it really bothers me when that happens, it has to be cohesive or it just crumbles for me. So if you can assist me with that, I'd hugely appreciate it.

    I have one civilization particularly that is unlike the other ones that all use magic in all the more traditional fantasy ways, channeling it and using it offensively; each civ having their own spin on it. Except one civ, which seemingly uses no magic, but they actually do have access to it in their own way, they don't really channel it and use it offensively directly like other civs, they just have special ores, special resources and other such things that have vaguely allowed them to develop a sort of advanced mechanical technology in a mostly medieval world. And other civs can't really replicate it, because it's not a globalised world so speed of information is slow anyway, but also, simply because they won't have access to these resources. It's not really advanced mechanical tech we have now, it's more like steampunk.

    On the other hand, I don't want gunpowder in this world, I want it to be the typical western medieval fantasy, where magic mostly explains the thousands of years of stagnation. However, is this enough explanation for this one particular civ tech prowess? it wouldn't be hugely overpowered, but it'd still be impressive you see. I'll illustrate in a second.

    It's hard to conciliate advanced tech where it doesn't belong, so to speak. I guess my question is, can it belong? :p

    If you need more info, imagine things like armatures, automatons, wood or metal prosthetics that somehow trump even modern medicine/tech. Think of Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan's 3DMG (I believe special ore is the only explanation for the insane air pressure they produce in a small device), Dishonored (tallboys, clockwork robots), Bloodborne's trick weapons, Violet Evergarden's arms, Sekiro's arm prosthetic, the Dwemer in Skyrim/TES (not sure how they did it, maybe I should look into it), I'm sure you're seeing a pattern here of crazy mechanical devices. I'm trying to think of other stuff like it, but can't think of anything atm. Can you have all that without... steam or electricity? Steam would be fine, but I have a hard time imagining steam tech existing without gunpowder or electricity, or low level electronics coming right after. If you guys can somehow explain that being feasible, I would love it, I could have trains without electricity and guns, that'd be perfect for what I want.

    The idea would be that this land in particular would have relics that can't really be reverse engineered, but humans are crafty and would still find a use for it nevertheless, they'd use them as they are. This could have a similar effect to magic stagnating tech, in fact, because it would impede "normal" tech progress.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  2. John McNeil

    John McNeil Active Member

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    You could have advanced technology sat around in caves that can't be studied (impregnable, forcefields you decide) and so can't be replicated. If they are too heavy to be moved but meet the needs of the local civilisation then that would impede progress. You don't need to specifically go into how they are powered (could be nuclear/geothermal) as long as the people have no access to assess this. Remember, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

    For this kind of thing try looking at https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/ you can find all sorts of great information there.
     
  3. sdfasdfasdfasdf

    sdfasdfasdfasdf New Member

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    Oooh brilliant, thank you so much, I'll check it out! And those are good points.
     
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  4. Robert Musil

    Robert Musil Comparativist Contributor

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    Did you ever play Rise of Legends? That game had a pretty good spin on the tech-vs-magic idea.

    Thinking about it more though, what you've really got is just a different kind of magic. So to answer the question in your title, yes it would make sense in-universe, because you aren't bound by the laws of physics like actual engineering is. Especially if, as you say it can't really be reverse-engineered. If you can't produce more of it I wouldn't call it technology.
     
  5. NigeTheHat

    NigeTheHat Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think I'd find the presence of steam tech without electricity or gunpowder weird. We were using steam before electricity in the real world, and while gunpowder had been around for a while it feels like a separate tech tree.
     
  6. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    The way western fantasy usually depicts technology is already skewed compared to history. Shouldn't forget that plate armour became widespread a hundred years after cannons came around.

    I believe your premise largely hinges on the general depiction/mood of your world. The Warcraft universe is one of the most popular fantasy worlds out there and features both magitech and actual tech.

    High fantasy allows most details to just fly; I believe the reason it works there is because those maintaining the lore don't make any active steps to explain the tech and why it can coexist. It's a world where the Horde has a faction that fights with sticks and stones (Darkspear Tribe) and another who drink super-intelligence commercial soda in a capitalist dystopia designing spaceships and A-bombs (Bilgewater Cartel).
     
  7. Accelerator231

    Accelerator231 Contributor Contributor

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    As a matter of fact, you can have all that as long as you use magic to bridge the gap in terms of motor controls and such other things that would ordinarily require delicate and complex electronics.

    Let's look at steel, particularly stainless steel. It's not that special, in terms of difficulty in making it. The Bessemer process was famous for being industrial. Usage of air to purify iron had already been known, but not in industry. It's basically getting pumps to get a higher enough temperature and air pumped through the metal. Add in chromium, and you get steel that's highly resistant to corrosion. You just need to fine-tune the ratios, and compared to most things, it's basically just getting the right weights and mixtures right.

    You want fine tuned cutting and manufacture? Check out things like the Antikytherea mechanism. Hero of Alexandra had mechanically powered singing machines and performances. It's not impossible, just harder and not that refined and widespread. You can get things like lathes and measuring tapes and all that pretty easy. It's not some insurmountable challenge.

    there's no reason for gunpowder to be invented. It's discovery was a complete accident, and its pretty possible it was just... never discovered in this timeline. Most inventions rely on serendipity. Same for electricity. The thought may genuinely never cross their mind.

    As for keeping it to them... just let them have a different social, infrastructural, and economic structure that causes them to choose this. Maybe this civilization loves craftsmanship and clockworks, and so their magic system dealt with this. Maybe they already had ready access to metallurgy, and just... incorporated everything into it.
     
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  8. IHaveNoName

    IHaveNoName Senior Member Community Volunteer

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    Sure. It's called "magitek". The Dwemer in TES powered their automatons with soul gems; I think they also used steam/geothermal power for their cities. Final Fantasy and Avatar are well-known for being magitek settings; from what you're describing, it sounds like you're leaning more toward Avatar. It's kind of what I'm doing with my setting - many things are powered either by magical energy or crystals (which are actually solidified energy).

    You could also go with a clockwork/steampunk setting, like Dishonored, or a mash-up of all three - different civilizations wouldn't necessarily all use the same tech, unless there's a good reason for it.
     
  9. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    My fantasy world has a magitek race with a non-removable power core. Originally they were rare relics found in ruins, declared machines by the magic guild and utilized as slaves...but some believe them to be more sentient than the rest believe...I have not entirely made up my mind but when I finish what I am working on now the world my get a surprise visit by some very upset automatons wanting to free their enslaved kin....this trope is definitely not original so feel free to grab it for inspiration if you so desire.
     
  10. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    There are interesting examples of automata throughout history, usually performing quite basic functions but clever and impressive nonetheless. The addition of powerful magic of course could do a lot more with them. Here's Liutprand of Cremona's account of the Byzantine throne:

    In front of the emperor’s throne was set up a tree of gilded bronze, its branches filled with birds, likewise made of bronze gilded over, and these emitted cries appropriate to their species. Now the emperor’s throne was made in such a cunning manner that at one moment it was down on the ground, while at another it rose higher and was to be seen up in the air. This throne was of immense size and was, as it were, guarded by lions, made either of bronze or wood covered with gold, which struck the ground with their tails and roared with open mouth and quivering tongue. Leaning on the shoulders of two eunuchs, I was brought into the emperor’s presence. As I came up the lions began to roar and the birds to twitter, each according to its kind, but I was moved neither by fear nor astonishment … After I had done obeisance to the Emperor by prostrating myself three times, I lifted my head, and behold! the man whom I had just seen sitting at a moderate height from the ground had now changed his vestments and was sitting as high as the ceiling of the hall. I could not think how this was done, unless perhaps he was lifted up by some such machine as is used for raising the timbers of a wine press.
     
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  11. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Medieval engineering was incredible. All those cathedrals built with stones put into place using intricate rollers, levers, hoists, scaffolding etc not to mention the mathematical calculation involved. It WAS advanced.
     
  12. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    As was the masonry involved in building the pyramids. In fact stone masonry was considered a magic. The general public had no idea how it was done, and there were special initiation rites involved for those chosen to become masons. These organizations still exist today, in the form of the Freemasons and other secret magical organizations.
     
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  13. naruzeldamaster

    naruzeldamaster Senior Member

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    You can easily substitute gunpowder for magical crystals that serve the same function.
    Heck, if you make those crystals a primary resource (easy to get, easy to refine/modify, and applies as a base to all tech) you can get away with a LOT like, a lot a lot.
    RWBY gets a lot of points for this, a lot of the cool shit they have in that show is because of dust, basically crystalized magic energy with attunements to different elements.
    You get silly shit like Shot Gun Nun Chucks and a Hand Bag that transforms into a full sized mini-gun. There's also swords that compete with Masamune (Sepheroth's sword) and the Buster Sword even.

    If you decide to go with this concept, please make a character basically a crystal mage. RWBY doesn't have one of these (Well technically a villain was going to be before the maiden shit was added) so I made an OC
     
  14. Ellen_Hall

    Ellen_Hall Active Member

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    People lived in houses made out of sticks with thatch roofs and rotten ferns for floors. Even royal bedchambers were decorated with mud-based ocher paint. Castles were just rocks stacked on rock by peasants with their bare hands.

    Hormones weren't discovered until around 1900. In the middle ages, the era of "water cure" and putting leeches on people was still centuries away. You'd have twelve children, and ten of them (and you) would die.

    There was nothing "advanced" about this age.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    The advanced tech of the middle ages was cathedral building and armoring, which both became incredibly advanced, beyond anything the world had seen before. Because of the discovery of groined ceilings, vaulted arches, and flying buttresses, stone became almost lighter than air—buildings could soar to incredible heights, touch heaven as never before. I believe there were also amazing advances made in the art of stained glass widows. All of which created a dizzying new sense of wonder for churchgoers, who must have felt like they were stepping into Heaven itself. And the metalworking for armor and weapons reached similar new heights, but I don't know much about that.

    It was a time when humanity's attention turned largely from the material to the spiritual, with cathedrals being the gigantic, undeniable symbols of it. All the secular glories of the great Classical age of Greece and Rome were forgotten, forbidden by Christianity and buried under the earth, not to be rediscovered until the beginning of the Renaissance. All the knowledge about the human body (the sculptors of ancient Greece obviously studied anatomy profoundly) and Democracy and the foundling pseudo-sciences of Natural Philosophy (which would become science centuries later) all lost under the stern strictures of Christianity. Artists lost their sense of proportion and forgot what the nude human body looked like, again because Christianity forbade any knowledge of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  16. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    Pretty much none of this is true. The ancient nude statues were still around for anyone who wanted to see them. In the Byzantine empire where Greek was the primary language every literate person studied Homer and Plato; in the West they didn’t have many Latin translations of Plato but Aristotle was king for intellectuals, along with Cicero, Macrobius, etc. You don’t get something like Boethius’ Consolation of Philosophy without studying Greek philosophy. This extended to natural sciences too. Those big cathedrals you mention weren’t built on piety alone but advanced mathematical and engineering principles. They even had fun with it too- Anthemius, architect of the Hagia Sophia, was nicknamed “Zeus the Thunderer” because he designed an earthquake device to harass his next door neighbor.
     
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  17. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    It's true for Northern Europe, especially England.
    Islamic civilisations didn't go through this dark period.
     
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  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Have you seen Medieval sculpture and paintings? There's no hint of the beauty of human proportioning evident in Classical and Hellenistic statues. I'm sure there were still statues here and there, but the knowledge had been forgotten. In fact, there was instead a return to the ancient Egyptian and Aztec style of making the more important figures physically larger and the peons tiny in comparison.
    Wasn't the Byzantine Empire the Islamic world? Very separate from Europe and England of the medieval age as far as I know. Yes, it's very true that Islam had the great scientists and astronomers of the medieval age, when all that was lost in the west. Then it all flipped when the dominant religion of the West gave way once again to secularism in the Renaissance, and the secularism that had allowed all the advancement in the Muslim world crumbled under the oppressive regime of a religion that forbade all scientific seeking and in fact enforced the forgetting of all that was learned in its former age of glory.
    True, but all heavily Christianized. And if I understand right, the only intellectuals of the age were the clergy. The Schoolmen as they're called, who carried on the teachings of Aristotle and Macrobius et al, picked and chose what was taught and made a lot of changes so that there was no trace of paganism and they inserted God and Christ into every place they could. But yes, it was Christianity that saved the teachings which might otherwise have vanished entirely in the burning of the Library at Alexandria and other purges of ancient lore.
    Yes, that's why I called it advanced technology. :supersmile:
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
  19. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    Uh yeah, I’ve seen medieval painting and sculpture. Studied it even. I am well aware that it is very different from classical Roman and Greek sculpture. What I take issue with is your accounting for those differences.

    Are you serious? I’m honestly amazed here. You’re talking about medieval Christendom and you’re not aware of the most powerful and influential Christian state for centuries? Like where all the ecumenical councils of the first millennium took place? The place whose emperor sent a request to Rome for some mercenaries and inadvertently kicked up the first Crusade? All those Greek Christian scholars showing up in Florence at the time of the renaissance, where do you think they came from? This is Christian history at its most basic.

    This is completely wrong. Most of the scholars were clergy but not all (eg Abelard, Boethius, Anna Comnene). They did not, as you claim, rewrite the classics to erase traces of paganism. That would have been almost sacrilege to these people for whom books- any books- were semi-sacred. Not only did they not erase pagan traces but often looked for parallels (sometimes quite strained) between pagan and Christian mythology, with the view that even the pagans had hints of the gospel foreshadowed in their myths. If you want a crash course in how pagan literature was used in medieval Christendom, read CS Lewis’ The Discarded Image (I’m not a CS Lewis fan overall but this little book is excellent).
     
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  20. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    That must be why Chaucer's totally pagan epic poem Troilus and Criseyde became so popular.
     
  21. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    And of course Chaucer, like so many medieval literati, was reading Ovid's Metamorphoses with delight. Not some bowdlerized, Christianized Ovid (ha, good luck with that!) but the real Ovid.
     
  22. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    OK, admittedly I'm not well versed in Christian history. But it seems all your arguments are very secondary to my main points, that Medieval cathedral design and construction was highly advanced technology, which utterly changed the way buildings could be constructed. Formerly they had needed to remain squat and low, with extremely thick walls and very small windows, making them dingy and dark inside, but thanks to the new design elements I mentioned they now became slim, elegant, and acquired a totally new verticality that seemed to reach to Heaven itself, both the inside and outside of the buildings.

    My other main point was that the elegance and knowledge of the human body formerly displayed by Greek sculptors was lost.
     
  23. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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