Writers here, how do you handle both moral outrage and pressures to censor your work?

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by Oldmanofthemountain, May 1, 2021.

  1. Oldmanofthemountain

    Oldmanofthemountain Active Member

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    This is a bit off topic, but I remember the days when conspiracy theories were just the fringe and far fetched but fun little "mysteries" in life. Like was Stonehenge built by aliens or was there more then just Lee Harvey Oswald involved with John Kennedy's assassination. In this current climate, "conspiracy theories" are now an ad hominem for discrediting opposing political accusations. I'm guessing genuinely destructive conspiracy theories like "vaccine causes autism" and ones that are anti Semitic contributed to this. Man I miss those days.

    What inspired me to write this comment was the "black-and-white polarity" (as you put it) online world we live in today. Conspiracy theories tend to be one of their main buzzwords thrown around in their circles. To avoid opening any can of worms, I won't go into any specifics, but it sort of infuriates me on what "conspiracy theory" is deemed acceptable by society and what others are deemed dangerous and morally repugnant. As someone who used to love researching paranormal related conspiracy theories as a kid, it sort of saddens me to see a childhood hobby tarnished by today's divisive atmosphere.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
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  2. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    It's not censorship, Amazon has a right to decide which content is appropriate for their platform and what is not. They are a private company. You are welcome to take your content elsewhere. Zero censorship.
     
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  3. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Hey, I've got an idea... let's ditch all the political soapbox shit. Nobody gives a shit about the delusional Left, the dip-shit ignorant Right, the creamy Middle, the Libertarians, Communists, or Branch-Davidians. Take it to the debate room. Or better yet, another Internet venue far, far away from our friendly little writing community. You can faff political garbage anywhere now... including toilet paper reviews on Amazon and your local neighborhood Ring or Nest camera watch group.

    It's writing. It's an art. It's supposed to be offensive to somebody somewhere from some reason... and if you ain't triggering or pissing somebody off, you're probably doing it wrong. Write what you want, don't ask for permission, don't apologize. And if readers can't handle that, they are more than welcome to fill their leisure time doing something else. Like watching Disney movies (wait, those are probably offensive, too) or listening to Yo-Yo Ma (though I suspect his cello doesn't properly address the travails of Asian Americans).
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  4. hyacinthe

    hyacinthe Banned

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    hm. so I really wondered what specific content was not allowed on the Kindle store, so I looked it up, and I don't see a problem.

    here's the Content Guidelines, for anyone else who wondered: https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200672390
     
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  5. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    It's writing. It's an art. It's supposed to be offensive to somebody somewhere from some reason... and if you ain't triggering or pissing somebody off, you're probably doing it wrong. Write what you want, don't ask for permission, don't apologize. And if readers can't handle that, they are more than welcome to fill their leisure time doing something else.

    Homer said it, so I don't have to... but it bears repeating.
     
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  6. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Yup. Disney is trying to backtrack and remove the 'true-love's kiss' from Snow White because she does not consent.
     
  7. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I did say it's not censorship directly, but if everyone refuses to sell something because they fear moral outrage, it's effective censorship. It might start with the truly offensive, but can be a slippery slope in the current climate.
     
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  8. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Oooh, looks like they changed it. My novel includes portrayals of the exploitation of children, which was explicitly banned. But now it states 'promotes', which it certainly does not.
     
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  9. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Ive written and published a novel that includes modern slavery without a problem... they've never had a problem with books that mention the exploitation of children... there are literally hundreds of crime novels which feature the kidnapping of children... Mystic river by Dennis Lehane, Worth Dying for by Lee Child, Cold Granite by Stuart Macbride to name three (all three of which i bought from amazon over the years)

    What they are concerned about is books which are either incredibly graphic to the point of being pornographic, or where the content and tone suggests that the exploitation of children is just fine and dandy
     
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  10. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    You know, I was about to make the argument that I try to write Happily Ever After love stories with no intention of offending anyone. And then I realized that because all of my couples in my published books are men who love men, they are in fact likely offensive and upsetting to a good segment of the reading population.

    So go me - I'm a rebel after all! :superyesh::cheerleader:
     
  11. RMBROWN

    RMBROWN Senior Member

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    I copied this, that way the next time someone has hurt feelings, I will just use your words, they are better than mine
     
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  12. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    While it's pushing the boundary on the graphic side (the very first line is a sex scene with a minor), it's not even close to be being pornographic or supportive, so should be ok. @jannert has done some Beta reads and would no doubt agree. It's the manuscript I've posted many samples of in the workshop.

    I may give this a go.

    Anyway, back on track....

    I'm very big on artistic freedom and grittiness, which is why I'm a fan of Selby, Bukowski, Burroughs etc. All of whom were dragged through obscenity trials. (edit: actually, I don't think Bukowski was...)
     
  13. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    Honestly, I've come to realize the outrage mob is just a tiny fraction of people who have nothing better to do with their time. They're really not worth reacting to. Yes, some of them try to tank stories and sabotage careers, but they are hardly what you need to worry about.
     
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  14. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Just write, ya'll. Do your thing. Don't explain yourself. Don't be afraid of making readers feel things. It ain't art if you're not triggering people.
     
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  15. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    What if it adversely affects sales?
     
  16. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Then you immediately bow to social pressure, bend to all winds, write exactly what the public is looking for, and carefully do not paraphrase Oscar Wilde's commentary on modern portrait painters.
     
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  17. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Then you weigh business decisions against artistic ones. You want to keep it real or get paid?
     
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  18. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    It almost certainly won't for most people... aside from Erotica/Fet the only examples i can think of books actually being destocked are When Harry became Sally and the Turner Diaries (Dr Seuss doesn't count because they were pulled by the Seuss foundation not amazon).
     
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  19. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    No, it's a rational business decision. Amazon doesn't owe you anything. They are in business to make money. Anything that they think will cost them money or lose them good will among consumers, they have every right to refuse to carry on their site.
     
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  20. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    To clarify a point related to this discussion--private entities can and do censor. TV networks used to employee censors. These were not government actors. However, when the government does it, in the U.S. it becomes a First Amendment issue. Private entities are generally free to censor content if they feel like it.
     
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  21. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I think somebody must have realised how many worthwhile books that 'portrayal' thing would have eliminated.
     
  22. DK3654

    DK3654 Almost a Productive Member of Society Contributor

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    'Learn how to distinguish between genuine valid criticism and censorship', is one answer I feel needs to be added to this discussion. Don't get hung up on every complaint, but also don't ignore all criticism just because you've hastily decided someone is trying to censor you or whatever. It's worth considering what people are actually saying and whether or not it might have any merit. It's worth listening sometimes to people you think are probably wrong so you actually get some exposure to some radically different views and that way you might understand them better.
    'Triggering' certain people may be somewhat inevitable, but I think it's worth considering who is being upset and why. You know, upset the right people for the right reasons. Deliberately or callously playing into genuinely harmful messaging is very different from firmly taking a carefully considered, principled stance in your work. Know what it is that you are actually doing.
     
  23. dbesim

    dbesim Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I once designed a quiz on buzzfeed. At the time the editors were asking to publish quizzes that promoted ethnic diversity. It was called “pick some cool clothes and we’ll tell you what Hindu deity you compare to.” Not the first quiz of its kind. Got 240, 000 views over night. Didn’t go down well with the Hindu population. Buzzfeed had to delete the post following a bunch of angry comments. Had to reply to one or two e-mails myself calmly explaining that the test was supposed to raise awareness rather than cause offence. Here’s another one. This one was not deleted.

    Buzzfeed editorial team always review a quiz before they let it go out. From my point of view the whole thing was blown out of proportion. Sometimes a small trifle. Offends someone. The world is mad.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  24. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Rational or not it's still effective censorship.
     
  25. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    No matter how many times you say that, it's still not. Any private entity can make any private decisions they like. The First Amendment refers only to the government and governmental entities. That's not Amazon. You're still wrong.
     

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