Horses. I don't know anything.

Discussion in 'Research' started by Not the Territory, Jun 3, 2021.

  1. Lazaares

    Lazaares Contributor Contributor

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    Much underestimated how useful a courier system and developed infrastructure was! As today's world has motorways and petrol stations, so did medieval kingdoms have the rare paved roads (perhaps Roman-built) with inns & stables. You can't gallop twelve miles on a horse to deliver a letter, but you can gallop twelve miles on seven different horses!
     
  2. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I don't ride, but my younger sister rode, trained, and showed horses. One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is what type(s) of horses might have been involved.

    Chain mail armor is heavy. Armor for a war horse is heavy. Armored knights didn't ride thoroughbreds, quarter horses, Morgans, or anything of that ilk in battle. They rode BIG horses -- like Clydesdales -- because it took big horses to carry the weight of the rider plus the armor. Also, if memory serves correctly (always open to debate), I don't think an armored knight would be able to mount a war horse in the middle of a battle if he were able to snag a fallen adversary's horse. My fuzzy recollection is that the armored knights had to mount from a step, and often/usually with the help of a page.
     
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  3. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    oops double post
     
  4. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    That is my daughter. Once there was this 300 pound meth addict who decided he could easily take on two cute little blond cops who looked like sweet sisters. So he took them on... but he did not win.
     
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  5. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    Steps make it easier to mount a horse, whether the rider is wearing armour or not. But they aren't required, with the exception of armour designed specifically for jousting in tournaments, where some of the joints were not articulated. Knights could even jump onto horseback, as shown in this video: . It helped that horses were shorter back in those days.

    For the OP, as well as seconding the recommendation to watch Modern History TV videos, I'd also suggest taking a few riding lessons. That will let you get a feel for what it's like, even with something as simple as the rocking motion as each leg moves. One of the strangest things I found was not having to steer around corners as you'd have to in a car or on a bike.
     
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  6. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I wouldn't have believed it if somebody just said it was true, but seeing the video it all looks totally natural. Strange though to see a medieval knight in full plate armor and high-tech modern climbing shoes climbing the wall.
     
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  7. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not convinced. First, the text said that he (whoever it's talking about) was without peer. Second, that gymnastics horse isn't nearly as high or as broad as a draft horse. That's the way the original Tonto (Jay Silverheels) used to mount Scout, but Clayton Moore (the Lone Ranger) was a circus performer before he became an actor, and he didn't mount Silver that way.
     
  8. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    Knights did not wear full armor until the 14th century, right at the end of the medieval period.
    From the 9-14th century they wore only mail, later on with helmet and breastplate.
    So as I said earlier, men fought more on foot and the mounting/dismounting horse thing wasn't a factor in battle.
    Also, throughout the medieval period horses were not huge. By modern standards they were actually pretty small, some no more than pony-sized. Big draught horses like Clydesdales didn't even exist in anything approaching their modern size until the 18th century.
    Movie depictions of the medieval period are very inaccurate...
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
  9. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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  10. madhoca

    madhoca Contributor Contributor

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    You need to be careful relying on unresearched blogs. This one is more accurate:

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/medieval/11-facts-never-knew-medieval-warhorses.html

    As it states, heavy warhorses were a late development, and "large" by Medieval standards was not huge by today's. Nothing like the size of a Shire or Clydesdale, those horses were developed much later.
    My uncle was in the Household Cavalry and he bred horses after he retired so I know a (very) little about types of horses.
     
  11. Rosacrvx

    Rosacrvx Contributor Contributor

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    This made me laugh. I was fortunate enough to learn how to ride a horse but I can't ride a bicycle and I'm terrible at driving (a car). Maybe this comment of yours explains it. I don't have to pay that much attention on a horse, the horse will pay attention for me. I never thought of riding a horse as anything similar to driving a vehicle, though.
     
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  12. Rosacrvx

    Rosacrvx Contributor Contributor

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    Only to add that while riding I was paying *a lot* of attention to the horse instead: was it comfortable, was it happy, was it willing to do this or that, etc. My whole attention was on the horse.
     
  13. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    Riding a horse feels to me more like navigating than driving/riding a mechanical vehicle. You tell the horse to turn left or slow down, and leave it to him or her to actually perform the manoeuvre (or do something else if the mood strikes). Somehow, before I tried it out, it struck me as just another mode of transportation.
     
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  14. Storysmith

    Storysmith Senior Member

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    I'm not suggesting that many mounted that way. I originally included that video to disprove the idea that knights couldn't even mount during a battle, and I think it's clear that with stirrups, a knight could mount fairly easily.

    Plus, the horses of knights wouldn't have been as tall as a modern draught horses.
     
  15. Rosacrvx

    Rosacrvx Contributor Contributor

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    Well, just to go deeper on this, riding a horse feels to me as an understanding between us and them. They'll help you if you're not experienced because they take pity on you. They're even more willing to help if they feel you care about them. I've learned how to ride but of course I never owned horses. If I did, I sense that a good friendship could arise between us, just like with a dog or a cat. I always felt that the horse was a good acquaintance that was doing me the favour of letting me ride it, especially because I'm not heavy.
    And I hope this is is useful to the OP as well. Speaking of which, OP @Not the Territory , if you really know nothing about horses, I advise you to try to get in touch with horses as much as you can.
    I was afraid the first time I approached a horse. Suddenly, it looked so big and intimidating! But no, they're adorable.
     
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  16. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    But no, they're adorable.

    Let me introduce you to Greige, the insane horse from hell who tried to stomp my son during training exercises. ;)

    Our farrier always said that a horse wasn't meant to be a pet, but a horse could become a very good friend.
     
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  17. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Speaking of horses, I got a phone call from my son today. Our dearly loved bay gelding died of colic. My mare died in February. It has been a hard few months. They were both very good friends.
     
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  18. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    :( That's not easy on the heart.
    May they rest in peace.
     
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  19. JRTomlin

    JRTomlin New Member

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    That armor was extremely heavy is simply a myth. A full set of armor did not weigh much, generally around 50 or 60 pounds US, and it was quite possible for any knight or man-at-arms (it was not only knights who rode horses and wore armor) could easily mount, jump and roll. The armour in this is quite typical of what was worn during in the 100 Years War. Knights were not there to be decorative. They actually had to fight which is pretty easily shown by the number who were killed in various battles such as the Battle of Bannockburn where not only hundreds of knights but lords of high degree died. The point of their armor was to be practical and to (hopefully) keep them alive.

    Mobility in Medieval Plate Armor/ Armour via @YouTube
     
  20. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Yeah, I figured it wasn't too bad. I compared brigandine, chain, and plate and apparently they all came in somewhere around 60 lbs. It sounds like a heft, and in some contexts it really is (especially for modern people. A lot of us can go our whole lives without being too physical), but it's so evenly distributed it should allow for the fundamentals. Not to mention knights trained in it, too.

    Modern soldiers end up getting loaded up with around 80-90 lbs, too—most of that ends up in a rucksack. I guess they would just toss the bag to wherever they're clambering, but they still have to trudge up hill in it.
     
  21. Keongxi

    Keongxi Member

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    Maybe you should read a book about the Mongols and cavalry? In the medieval ages, the majority force of the Mongols were made up of cavalry and the Mongols are famous for using cavalry.

    Regarding WW1 cavalry,
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
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  22. JRTomlin

    JRTomlin New Member

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    Since medieval armor was never standardised some of the more elaborate could have weighed possibly as much as 80 pounds, but never more than it was possible to do normal activities in. The same rather myth has grown up around swords, that they were so heavy that 'a woman could not lift one'. The much-vaunted 'Wallace Sword' (which probably was never owned by William Wallace but was from that general period) only weighs about 6 pounds. Having been part of a sword-fighting club I can tell you that fighting with a six-pound weapon can tire you out pretty quickly but even a child can lift one.

    There are tons of myths out there.

    By the way, it is not true that most knights dismounted to fight as I have seen mentioned. Some did. In the early middle ages, shield walls were typical. Later the Scots including knights typically fought on foot and possibly the Flemish. Both the Battle of Bannockburn and the Battle of the Golden Spurs showed that could be effective. But the English and the French generally did not adopt that tactic. They had infantry and archers on foot while knights often acted in effect as shock troops. One interesting event (well, to me anyway) was the Battle of Poitiers in which the Scottish leader convinced the French King that the attack should be delivered on foot. When the battle turned into a total disaster, the French blamed the Scots and their tactics. (There were a number of reasons for the terrible defeat, but in my opinion, it is unlikely that was one of them.)
     
  23. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Huh, I had never heard the notion that swords were too heavy for women to lift.

    It can be tricky to talk about history without throwing in some 'always this never that' statements—which can sometimes lead to historians (amateur or otherwise) knocking each other's teeth out. I went into this thread expecting it, especially because my question was fairly broad with regard to time (200 years) and place. I intuitively understand that 'x only did y' means 'x, at a particular time and place, probably did y based on the dude in the tapestry, and this generalization is subject to exception.'
     
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  24. Joe_Hall

    Joe_Hall I drink Scotch and I write things

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    I know I was one of the ones who mentioned people who rode and then dismounted during the 100 years war. Let me clarify that knights generally fought on horseback, however there were plenty of longbowmen and men-at-arms who purchased and rode horses as means of conveyance but did not ride their horse into battle. There are surviving historical role-calls where they list soldiers and the gear they bring, including a horse, if the person brought one. Horses were expensive to buy and maintain, which is why, when soldiers were compensated at peasant wages, but given a share of war spoils, historians have tracked individuals as they improved their positions. It is a good indication of how successful campaigns actually were, if after a couple years they had better equipment and a horse when they started out on foot with basic gear.
     
  25. JRTomlin

    JRTomlin New Member

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    I apologise for misunderstanding your point, Joe. You're right that there were huge numbers who fought on foot, and some of those did have horses, although it is difficult to know the percentage. It was probably not a majority simply because of the difficulty of feeding a horse on campaign. You cannot keep a horse fit on only graze, which was of course quickly depleted anyway. More than one army ended up retreating because their horses were starving.

    There is, I suspect, a perception in many people's minds that knights made up most of the people in a medieval army when they definitely did not. And a very ordinary peasant could end up comparatively wealthy from the loot of a successful campaign or battle. One of the contemporary accounts of King Robert the Bruce's speech to his army before the Battle of Bannockburn included the promise that if they kept their courage, did as he commanded, and defeated the English that every man would be wealthy from the spoils. He was not far off.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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