Lost faith in my book - friends and family beta readers and hurt feelingd

Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Integer, Mar 5, 2017.

  1. exweedfarmer

    exweedfarmer Banned Contributor

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    Everyone's been there.
     
  2. Sheerah

    Sheerah Member

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    A similar situation happened to me.... Please please don't let this situation stop you. Its true ot everyone has an ability to criteque or even an ability to endure reading for any length of time. It's a big ask. Find people who may write in same or similar genre. Or here amoung like mi ded souls. There's no better place to gain various options. But don't let go of your dream... :wotwot::write:
     
  3. Sheerah

    Sheerah Member

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    Sorry for the typos... I'm lay down lol not a good way to type
     
  4. df4205

    df4205 New Member

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    I feel your pain. I sent my first book to my significant other, my brother-in-law, mother-in-law, my sister, and a friend that teaches English Lit at a college. Other than my SO (who took almost a year to finish it) no one else bothered. My friend “got busy with work”. My sister “lost her copy”. My MIL can’t figure out how to open the file. My BIL “will get around to it”.

    I’m with you on the mentality of “I just want some feedback”. It might be different if they read your work and gave some feedback, but it does suck when you can’t get any input. I, like you, went down the road of "Why am I doing this? Why bother? I’m wasting day after day, putting all this effort into something, and for what?” Want to know what has become my motto? It’s going to sound silly, but I just keep repeating the quote from Frank-N-Furter in the Rocky Horror Picture Show: “I didn’t make him for you!”

    While I completely understand your situation, I think the only time you should consider giving up is when you can no longer answer the question of “Why am I bothering?” At the end of the day, if you can’t believe in your work...how you can you expect anyone else to?

    My advice: Try not to get down about it. As others have said, reading a book takes a lot of time. I know a lot of us here are speed readers and can finish a book in a day or two. This isn’t the case for most people. You’ve got to remember that your friends and family have jobs, kids, bills, dinners to cook, appointments to keep, and their own daily troubles to deal with. You can always try your luck here and on other writing forums to find a Beta Reader who is at least willing to offer to read it. But in the meantime—try to become your own worst critic. I know for us writers, this is like asking someone to chop their own arm off, but everyone else is going to criticize, so you might as well join them. Sit down and re-read your work and try to spot any problems. Are there any dead spots in the work? Look for sections that just “lay there”. If there are sections that contain heavy amounts of exposition or dialogue, consider tweaking them. This was a problem of mine early on, so if you’re re-reading it and going “Jeez! Are they still talking?!” you might want to have the maid come in with a cup of tea or something. Good luck, stick with it, and in the words of Lisa Lionheart, “Believe in yourself, and you can achieve anything!”
     
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  5. Rosacrvx

    Rosacrvx Contributor Contributor

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    Never expect family to be beta readers. Ask feedback from strangers. Reciprocate.
     
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  6. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

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    Be picky about family members as betas. If they don't like it they may be reluctant to tell you. And you may come across as soliciting support and encouragement, rather than a critique/editing: i.e., please tell me my book is great.

    My wife and I are the exception, but between us we have five self-published books, three of which are selling well. We are each other's first line editors. We each read the other's chapters, mark it up, and point out story inconsistency, or we skull-session each other's projects to determine where to go next. We can be both brutally honest with each other, and just as important, reject the other's criticisms and suggestions, all without hurt feelings. Not everyone can do that.
     
  7. df4205

    df4205 New Member

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    Wouldn't not liking it require that they read it first? Lol. Trust me, my SO and I are the same way on brutally honest critiquing. I got quite a few "You missed this" and "You need to work on that" comments, hehehe. Thanks to them, I've gone from only briefly describing a character to being the moderator at a fashion show :O
     
  8. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I refuse to let anyone I know read my stuff. Not that I am afraid of critique, I welcome it, but I don't want any value judgements to be made.

    That said, if you put your work out there it will be critiqued. It will be disliked. That's the deal, be it either requested critique or simply the end reader. No book will be spared. And none, ever, anywhere, in the history of time past or coming, will be liked by all.

    If you can't handle negative opinions of your story, don't let it be read.

    And just because you wrote it, poured your heart and soul into it, crafted it with every ounce of strength in your body and mind, doesn't mean it will be any good. And that's ok. Most of my stuff sucks. But there's a few gems in there and I've learnt a LOT.
     
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  9. Thomas Larmore

    Thomas Larmore Senior Member

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    I've been there.
     
  10. Andrew Hope

    Andrew Hope Member

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    I'm lucky enough to have a couple of beta readers that I've known for a few years. They read mostly horror (my genre), and I never ask for indepth analysis. Most people who read do just that - read. They rarely, if ever, even contribute reviews to Goodreads or Amazon. I find them helpful nevertheless because they always seem to be engaged by the stories and characters, and that's good enough. I've never met them in real life, and we rarely even swap texts or calls. On the other hand, I'm married with an adult child, who both never read my stuff. My wife isn't a reader, but she encourages my writing. My kid, however, is a semi-avid horror reader. I think for her it might be case of being too close to the source and not wanting to discover my work is awful. I understand that mindset too. Friends and family are probably the worst readers you can have, because of that baggage. If a friend came to me and asked me to read her dystopian YA romance I'd say no. It isn't my thing. No harm, no foul. She would get a much more helpful critique from someone who actively reads in the genre.

    LostThePlot asked "How can you not take it personally" in relation to family not being interested in one's writing. The answer is one should never take ANY lack of interest or bad critique personally. EVER. You look for people who will read your work and go from there, and when the bad critiques come in, you give them all the same consideration and decide what to do next.
     
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  11. Mullanphy

    Mullanphy Banned

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    Both of my sisters have been professional editors. The older of the two worked as an editor for Reuters News Service for a number of years. The younger sister has an English Lit degree and has worked freelance for, geesh, 3 decades, now. Both have agreed to edit my work at standard rates for professional editing, but neither would agree to beta reading. Lucky for me I have two smart sisters!
     
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  12. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Integer, I am so sorry your book wasn't as well-received as you'd hoped. That hurts the heart, the psyche, and the ego. Maybe you chose the wrong audience, maybe the book needed serious work, or maybe people were too tied up in their own projects to spend much time on someone else's project.

    I made clear to all of them that they didn't have to like it, or finish it, but I wanted some real feedback. "Yes it was great, no I can't be bothered to read all of it" just seems so, insulting.

    That is real feedback: it's just not the feedback you wanted.

    When I wrote my first "real" novel, I expected people to be as entertained as I was. One was (my husband adores anything I write), one said she was (she loves me, too), but the others bogged down and put it aside pretty fast. After several people said some version of "I just can't get into it," I had to accept that it was (sigh) boring. All was not in vain: writing and rewriting the novel and learning to interpret criticism even when it wasn't phrased in loud, round sentences was invaluable to my growth as a writer.

    Under extraordinary conditions, I might agree to be a beta reader again, but only for someone who has been around writing for a while, whose disposition is well-know to me, and who genuinely wants to know what works for me and what doesn't. More than once, people have insistently pressed their new manuscripts on me in happy anticipation of having someone read and adore their beloved literary offspring. More than once, I've simply laid aside a manuscript and not mentioned it again, usually because a) the story failed to catch my interest within the first twenty pages, b) the writing was unpolished, ungrammatical, cliché-ridden, awkward, etc. , and c) I knew the person was very, very proud of the story and expected accolades for his or her accomplishment. Now when approached, I wish the writer well, but say I don't have the time to give the project the attention it deserves. As someone observed above, beta reading is a hard, time-consuming, largely thankless task.
     
  13. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    I have found that while many people fantasize about writing a book (we all have a story we want to tell), most don't even try. This means they have no idea of just how hard writing a whole book is. Most people's idea of writing remains in a fantasy, so in their minds it is all easy-peasy.
    I doubt your family and friends realize how much effort you have put to get where you are with your book and what it means to you. They like you so they started reading it, but I don't think they realize that writing isn't just a hobby the same way one watches movies or knits a sweater (and here I am being unfair, because so much can be shared in a creative project--traditions, communal and inter-generational knitting, therapy--but it is not required to be that way). There is so much more at stake in writing . . . . I don't think they fully realize what is going on for you at the emotional level. I would encourage you to express your feelings to them as a means to develop your relationship with them, more than developing your book.

    So, I think you need to consider finding people who have a stake in writing and/or experienced writing in ways that they are committed to offer quality feedback. Someone who can cheer for you while you can cheer for them. That is why finding a good match for beta reading can be tricky. Don't get discouraged, you can improve with the right feedback :superwink:
     
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  14. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I do feel compelled to say that friends and family can make excellent betas. I've certainly had many who were. However, I've also had close friends who couldn't get into my novel at all, or who read it and didn't like it.

    The trick? Be dispassionate.

    Obviously if a friend or family member is deliberately and maliciously pushing your buttons, just walk away. But there is no guarantee that a person who loves you is going to love everything you do. I could be madly in love with, say, an electrical engineer, but if he were to write a book about electrical engineering, I would probably not enjoy reading it. I might not even try. I would do my best to encourage him to write it, to provide the kind of environment for him so he could write, and to help him find a beta reader who could give it a proper evaluation. But I would not be interested in reading it myself.

    If you're writing fantasy, and your loved ones don't like fantasy—or don't like the kind of fantasy you're writing—then don't emotionally blackmail them into undertaking this ordeal. If you are a WRITER you are probably more inclined to understand what a writer needs from a beta, so you might be able to dig into a genre you're not fond of yourself, and still be of help. (I've done tons of beta reading for people whose chosen genre is not one I would ever go out and buy.) However, if you're just a reader, you might struggle to give helpful feedback to the kind of story or style you don't really like.

    THIS LACK OF ENGAGEMENT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE WRITER! IMPORTANT. FLASHING LIGHTS, ETC.

    Always let your betas off the hook. Tell them beforehand that they might not like it at all, or might not be able to get past the first page, and that's okay. Just say so. If they want to tell you why, that's fine. If they don't, that's fine too. It's helpful to give them a few issues to focus on, if they do decide to read it. And ask them to be as honest as possible. Make it clear to them that your relationship will be unaffected by their honesty.

    Then make damn sure it isn't.
     
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  15. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Not everyone knows how to give feedback. Not everyone even enjoys reading. Not everyone who enjoys reading will enjoy your genre. And not everyone who enjoys your genre will enjoy your book. Frankly, to get hurt and upset over your friends and family not giving feedback is silly, and immature on your part. They love you. They do not love your writing. Now if you wanna keep your meaningful relationships, get your act together and realise you are not your writing. You are not your book. Just because someone loves you doesn't mean they have to read your book. How many times have you bought a book and didn't even bother opening it? It happens. If you let this affect you, you'll end up with only your books to hold onto to and no one at all. If this affects you, learn your lesson and don't coerce your loved ones into buying and reading. If they wanna read it, they will - you won't have to tell them.

    My mum bought my book (of her own accord) and did not read it. She bought it because she loves me. She has no interest whatsoever in what I write. That's ok. She's showing support in the way she knows how. Appreciate your loved ones' gesture, and move on. They're your friends and family, not writing colleagues there to help you do your work better.

    However, if so many of them didn't get past the halfway point and then the one piece of feedback you got was "It's so bad I couldn't continue" - brushing her comment off sounds, again, immature. Have you not considered perhaps your writing is lacking? You thought you'd be deep in querying with a book that nobody can finish and the one piece of feedback you got was "It's bad".

    Now is not the time to brush off the only piece of feedback you've gleaned. USE IT. People did not finish your book and here's why: It is bad.

    Now do something about it.

    Improve. Learn. Figure out why it's considered bad. Post it here in the Workshop and get some proper critique. Cry and rage for a while (because it fucking hurts when people rip your work to shreds. I've been there), and then strap on your boots and get to work. Get better. Because, guess what? Writing ain't magic. Writing is a skill. And skills can be learnt.

    You'll get there, but first you need realistic expectations, and second, you need to learn to reflect upon your own work in order to improve. If no one's willing to give you feedback and they are your friends and family, guess what, it was probably bad and they don't wanna say so because that would hurt you. You were unwise in your approach with first, forcing them to read and second, expecting your writing to be ready after a rough draft and third, ignoring the signs. Even silence can be feedback.
     
  16. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    I'd like to suggest that this is not certain at this point.

    The main reason I don't ask relatives/friends to beta read is that they're almost guaranteed to have zero interest in the genre.

    My dad wouldn't be able to finish my manuscript for the same reason he wouldn't get more than a few paragraphs into Dune before nodding off: the book isn't about golf, which is the only subject matter that holds his reading interest. It doesn't mean Dune's bad.

    Family and friends are random readers - the odds of having one that matches up in interests to the manuscript's actual target reader base is astronomically against. I would not treat random readers' lack of interest as any sort of assessment of the manuscript's quality.
     
  17. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I don't use friends and family for beta reads for the same reasons I don't hire them to work for me: too many non-business considerations. An opinion is no good to me if I can't rely on 100% personal dissociation.
     
  18. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yeah. With the exception of one family member, I get back nothing but glowing comments that are not only less than true but completely unhelpful :D
     
  19. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    But if you CAN rely on personal disassociation, friends and family can work really well. (I can attest to this personally.)

    You often hear/see authors who say their wife/husband is their best critic, and the person they go to first for feedback. I know we have more than one couple here on the forum who operate this way, and I certainly know, and know of, many traditionally-published authors out there in the real world who do this as well. It all boils down to different personalities and preferences.

    Some people won't use friends or family as betas. And it's a good idea to be aware of the pitfalls that can occur. But to assume the experience is the same for all friends and family of all writers is, I believe, a mistake.

    Friends and family can actually be the most helpful and most detailed betas of all, because they know how badly you want your work to fly—and they know that only honest feedback is what will help make that happen. They can be the ones who tell you the bad news you actually need to hear—and offer suggestions in a way that doesn't hurt, but actually inspires you to fix the problems.

    If they make fun of your writing, or treat you with disrespect or contempt, then they are NOT good betas. (No matter who they are.) They are also not good betas if they do the opposite, and praise you to the skies in general terms. But if they can read and give honest, detailed, focused feedback, why not let them 'help?'
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
  20. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Depends on how many he asked. I once self-published a book and one of my friends stopped at the halfway point, couldn't tell me why. Years later I reread my own book and I also stopped at the halfway point. That drivel needed some major editing lol.

    Anyway, having gone through and improved my craft the effing hard way (that is, by getting ripped to absolute SHREDS by strangers), pleasing the non-writers is actually really very easy. If you cannot entice a non-writer into giving you a bit of praise, even if they only read a page or a paragraph, chances are, something's wrong with your writing. A layman who does not write and usually is not critical towards writing should not see what's wrong with your writing - and if they do, then whatever you're doing is so basic as to be glaring.

    Having said that, I take your point. However, I'd also say, there's little to no point asking friends and family for feedback. How should they know? What qualification do they have to tell me how to write, when they do not write themselves? You wouldn't ask someone on the street to diagnose your heart problems, or ask a waiter to fix your toilet. You'd go to a doctor for your heart and a plumber for your toilet. To the OP, go get feedback from people who'd actually know a thing or two about writing. Getting bad advice is worse than no advice at all lol. Anyone is welcome to give me feedback, and if I see sense in it, I'll listen, but I certainly would never actively seek feedback from non-writers. You save yourself from a lot of damage by deciding to listen to only people who can actually write lol.

    Interestingly, you can usually tell who those people are. Their opinions and feedback will tend to be more nuanced, less absolute, and generally consider things on multiple levels. I sense it even in forum posts and have found some excellent writers this way.
     
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  21. montecarlo

    montecarlo Contributor Contributor

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    I like a lot of what you wrote but I don’t fully agree with this. The plumber it’s pretty easy to tell if he’s a good plumber—either your toilet works when its done or it doesn’t. If he’s plumbing a new house, an inspector can check his work and materials against building code.

    A doctor is not as objective, but still they pass exams. A decent doctor should be able to diagnose all but the rarest ailments and recommend treatments or referrals to specialists.

    But what makes a good writer? Is there an objective way to look at it? I could suggest book sales and reviews but we know that’s far from perfect. If we define it as someone who writes well, then that’s completely circular.

    A layman might not be able to diagnose what is wrong with your writing, but they can certainly provide valuable feedback like ”I was bored” or “Terry is an irredeemable little shit and I didn’t like him.” Not terribly meaningful from one person alone, but in aggregate the reactions can mean a ton.

    obviously it has to be filtered - would that person avoid hurting my feeling? Do they read for pleasure? If so, what do to they enjoy? What do they dislike?

    It’s maddening because nothing is definitive and everything requires judgment. But I certainly wouldn’t say a non-writers feedback isn’t valuable.
     
  22. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Readers are often, perhaps usually, non-writers.
     
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  23. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    I strongly disagree. Beta readers are distinguished from critique partners in that beta readers are mandated to provide feedback as if they were readers first, and not as writers. One of the most reliable ways to achieve this is to ensure your beta readers are not writers.

    What I expect from beta readers is that as a fan of genre X, what did they like or dislike about the manuscript - very high level stuff. I actually have a bullet list of questions for them to consider. I want absolutely nothing prescriptive. I'm the writer here. I don't write by committee.

    When I do want prescriptive advice about a manuscript ("What do I need to fix problem X?"), I solicit it from my writing critique circles (especially for short stories because they can be handled in one session) and maybe a developmental editor. But that's earlier in the process than the beta readers. The beta readers are going to read way closer to the end product that I think is mostly done - a last line of defence before I hire a copy editor to tackle SPaG.

    So that kinda excludes most friends/family from the product development stages. They're not writers, so I don't burden them with critique expectations; and, they're not readers (of the genre) so I don't see any value in dumping my manuscript on somebody who wouldn't be interested in it as a potential buyer.

    My impression is that when authors have a family member that provides valuable feedback, it might not be in these levels of product development. My wife, for example, would be a great copy editor. She can spot a grocer's apostrophe at 500 paces. I have a friend who is on the spectrum and I would put my life in her hands to detect continuity errors. But neither of them would be able to tell me if the pacing or plotting was 'good'.

    That said, there's value in engaging them in other parts of the project, such as launch parties or social media if they're into that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2021
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  24. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    I thought about it more last night. I think that while you (OP) are offering people who matter in your life a way to deepen the relationship with you through something that matters to you (your writing, your novel), I also think that reading a whole book they might not want to read and comment on it is a big task you are requesting of them. Do they always talk about the plots of books they read and make all sorts of analysis on the story and writing? Do they read at all? Maybe they just read to fall asleep, to be entertained or to feel, not think. Maybe your novel is not a genre they enjoy or know how the genre works, so they might read it differently than what you need as a writer. What you are asking of them is not just to read it, but to give you valuable feedback, and they might not have any idea how to do so. Reading your novel might be a much greater commitment for them than you realize.

    what I am trying to say is don' t transform your request into a test--if you love me you should do it--that is not an expression of love and you won't find the reassurance you are looking for. Plus consider, are you interested in everything they do and say? People are different, and if you are not it doesn't mean you don't love them.

    It seems to me you are focusing on the wrong thing here. You need to focus on getting your novel to work, but you are veering away from it into a quest for love from family and friends. Is it an excuse not to face why your novel is not working as it is? You can work on it and improve and learn how to make a story work. You have finished writing a novel, and many people don't get that far--pat your back because that alone is an accomplishment. It is your first draft and it is not quite working. Every novel goes through rounds and rounds of editing, it is part of writing. So get to work! :superyesh:

    That is the best advice I can give you. Hope it helps. :superhello:
     
  25. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    @KevinMcCormack @montecarlo - oh I'm not saying non-writers do not have valuable feedback. Only that they cannot teach me how to write. They are not who I go to to learn. They are simply the testers who tell me if something might be broken.

    However, we do all make a judgement on whether one's writing is good or bad - again, just fact. There does come a point when you can objectively say, "This person is a good/bad writer." This refusal to see that there is a threshold above which one should write if one hopes to be published is not helpful to your own writing development (if there's truly no threshold, agents would not be needed and everyone would be a bestseller - there is a certain quality to aspire to.) Everyone's taste is different - a good writer to you might well be different to whom I'd choose to emulate, but both would have achieved a certain level of skill, and we would each choose a different writer to be inspired by. But still, these are good writers at least by your own standards. That is fine. That's why I'd always say go learn from a writer whose writing you respect. Because probably that person is doing something you can learn from, that you appreciate, that you can't do (or can't do so well) yourself, that you wish you could do too. That is enough - that is learning how to do something you previously could not, or could not do as well as them.

    All I mean is, there's no point trying to learn how to write from someone whose writing you do not respect. Likely you do not respect it for a number of objective as well as subjective reasons, but regardless, something in it does not resonate with you, or does not mesh with your voice and approach, or simply is not done well. No matter. But that is nonetheless not someone I'd aspire to and allow to tell me how to improve.

    But yes, everyone can have valuable feedback to give, even non-writers and bad writers. However, what small nugget of value they can offer, so can the actually engaging writer and the published writer with good sales to at least prove people have enjoyed his writing. However, what the actually good writer can offer is - in my experience - better reasoning for the why and how, a more nuanced approach, an attempt to preserve the voice of the writer they're trying to help. They're unlikely to be imposing - not in my experience anyway, because the truly good writers are rarely so prescriptive. Whereas the poor or inexperienced writers will often spout rules like they're to die by, which often stifles the budding writer's own emerging voice and crushes their confidence. Or these writers cannot give proper reasons to their advice, good or bad, and the novice cannot discern how to apply the advice or even that it should be ignored, because it was bad advice. See, I see much more damage to be had than reward when seeking the advice of someone less experienced than yourself. It's less about whether they have any value to offer - of course they do! - and more about a certain level of caution, self-protection, and pure efficiency. It is simply more efficient to go straight for the better writer, if one is available.

    However, for purely reader's reactions, yes of course the person does not need to know how to write, but I do not consider that I'm learning the craft from such people. I am merely being alerted to which areas might still need work. There's no actual learning involved, per se.

    Anyway, different perspectives I guess. I just also know it hurts so damn badly when your writing is ripped apart. Truly, it effing hurts lol, though it has to be done. So I am selective over whom I allow to critique me, that's all. It's a level of self-protection. If there are 10 critics and only 3 good ones, I'll let the 3 good ones flail me raw, but the other 7? No thanks. I don't need the other 7 who will, if they're worth their salt, say the same thing the 3 good ones would, and if they're not, then say a bunch of other unhelpful things that will hurt equally bad and be useless to me. I'm not a masochist :D

    TL;DR - inexperienced writers and non-writers have valuable feedback to offer, but none that a more experienced and better writer could not offer you. On the other hand, a poorer writer is more likely to mislead you than the more experienced writer. It is also more efficient in terms of energy and time spent (and honestly, less heartache to be had). To give a slightly silly example, I once had someone tell me to "learn to spell" because I was spelling "realised" with an S rather than a Z. It's annoying, and a waste of time. I'm British. "Realised" is the British spelling for the word. To give a more realistic example, you'll have inexperienced writers slamming you for any sort of "telling" whatsoever, when telling has its rightful place - but how to use it? You need a certain level of experience to know, and then to actually communicate that. But the novice writer who hasn't built up her skills and/or confidence yet will hear some inexperienced writer say "Stop telling" and be utterly confused and discouraged. Maybe it's even good advice, but it won't do any good because the inexperienced writer usually cannot explain it well - they themselves are at the point of the journey where they're learning to apply it.
     
    sarkalark likes this.

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