All you women/girls out there - quick question

"No, because the settings I was in, I was with very close friends of mine, both male and female. So I never had to chuck a drink."

Just trying to understand what you meant by that. You aren't changing your actions, but you are being aware of or controlling your surroundings. Is that right?

 

It doesn't have to be, I was just asking whether she did that.

 

I think that the poster was saying that nearly all women are exposed to the warnings of risks that are found in society. But a woman is free, of course, to downplay or ignore those risks if they stand in the way of her goals.

One of the things I've learned from the #MeToo movement is that women, practically from the time they start growing breasts, are objectified and exposed to dangers that men seldom think about. They are stereotyped as objects of lust and male domination, and told that things are going to be different now from the way people are treated in general. It is always in the back of their minds, regardless of how they live their lives in defiance of that situation.

 

Thank you. I train in martial arts. All my classmates are male. I never feel unsafe around these men. I've gotten into cars with them, been alone with them. Had them walk me to my car once or twice when it was really dark.

 

I'm sorry. I still don't understand your question. It could be me. It's just a very confusing question. What are you asking?

 

“If you think all men are murdering rapists at their core, then we wouldn’t have made it this far. There have to have been men that are more interested in protecting women and children than killing women or we literally would not be here as a species.” - Bridget Phetasy

 

To clarify a little more, I think you said that your perception of men doesn't change your actions. "You wouldn't chuck your drink" as you say, but you prefaced that with saying you surround yourselves with men you trust or in situations you trust.

So I'm just asking if you think you don't have to change your attitude or perception of men because you control your environment or you are perceptive prior to being within an environment where you are compromised. Is that right?

I don't want to put words into your mouth there, but that's sort of how I understood your point. I just asked again to get to the core of your philosophy and where you feel or experience things differently as a woman.

 

Sorry. Not following. I'm really not trying to evade the question. I just have no clue what you're talking about. I can't help you.

I think you're looking way too far into what I said like there's secret hidden meaning in it. There's literally NO further explanation or insight to be had by what I said. That's it. What I wrote is all there is.

Here. This literally the only explanation you need for what I said.

 

But my dear Big Soft Moose, societal perception is basic to developing realistic characters, whether female or male or other. If one doesn't refute generalizations and improper perceptions of Women as a Predictable Species, one cannot add to the discussion of what makes a female character read as something beyond a cardboard cutout.

 

Don't worry, you've helped me a lot already! Its a shame you haven't understood the question though.

Ok here's another way of explaining it that doesn't include putting women under a microscope; I've never cared about situations I find myself when I've been drinking. It's something that doesn't occur to me. It's not a relevant part of my life.

Until I saw a girl in the show who mentioned the whole spiking a drink thing, I wasn't realising it's even a thing girls thought about. You seem to be leaning towards not thinking about it. E.g. "you never chucked a drink". But even with that, you surround yourself with people you trust, it shows awareness and planning to not be in that situation in the first place. So anyway I'm sorry if I haven't articulated it better for you once again. But truly thank you for your help in regards to my question.

 

I missed a comment on this, but jannert you are really good at making people think. I appreciate the way you wrote this so I could get to the answer with critical thinking. I don't know, but you must have been an English teacher at some stage?

 

I was an English teacher (along with a couple of other subjects), but it was back in 1971-72, when I was just out of university. I didn't enjoy the experience at all, and left after the first year. But I've been learning ever since ...and have learned a lot on this forum! Doing workshop critiques really does sharpen focus on the writing process.

 

Well let me assure you that you do it well. As to your point about learning, every good teacher is an eternal student or academic. Thats why they are able to teach concepts that students can get stuck on. At least that makes sense to me.

In my case, I'm just happy to be learning from everyone here in the discussion. I never had the experience of learning the writing process in the classroom properly and I've regretted that. So I like sparks flying and having these interesting discourse. (not to the point the moose comes and tramples us though!)

 

perhaps check out Story of My Life by Jay McInerney: https://www.amazon.com/Story-My-Life-Jay-McInerney/dp/0802144586/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=story+of+my+life+jay+mcinerney&qid=1636469793&sr=8-1

It's written by a man, but it's first person through the perspective of a young woman, and as a woman, I was pretty impressed with how well he's captured the gender. This is my friend's (also a woman) favourite book and resonated with her when she read it as a teen. Worth a look. Of course, this captures just one sort of woman. The voice in this is very strong and it was an enjoyable read.

I think barring one or two generalisation that would be safe to use, you should just write a woman like you would write any character. The best way would be look at the society in which your female character lives and consider what are the social expectations and culture that govern her? A woman raised in a warrior tribe will probably run into battle whereas a princess would probably cry - they're both women. Some difference in female and male interactions is nurtured through societal expectation. Men don't cry in public not because they wouldn't want to cry but it's been taught to them that this is unacceptable. Women cook not necessarily because they want to cook but because from a young age, she's seen her mother do it and her mother has been emphasising how a good wife should cook for her husband all her life. Etc.

Once you've considered what may generally be true about women in your book's society, then you can consider her personality. A rebel may say no to the cooking despite every single woman in her society telling her that she should lol. A woman might not cry, despite the fact that generally women may, because she's been raised to be a leader and she must appear strong. Personality, experience, her own trauma and belief systems will govern to what extent she fits the mould.

I will tend to write my women more emotionally than I write my men. I let my girls tear up whereas I don't generally do that with men. When I write sex scenes, the woman is more focused on emotionally connecting while the man will tend to focus more on her body. Note there are no absolute. It's not that you only do this when you're a woman and you only do that when you're a man - no. It's more about the focus and how heavily you lean into it, or what sort of descriptions you might use to convey emotions. The man, using a sex scene as an example, might be highly appreciative of the effort to which a woman might give him a blow job lol as an expression of love. The woman, while she might well see the same thing as a representation of love, may be more likely to appreciate the foreplay, the cuddles, the rose petals and consider those things as the effort the man has put into her, rather than how vigorously he might bang her. So while both the man and the woman may be engaging very emotionally, what they think about, what they describe, therefore, will be different, because different things are meaningful to them.

A woman who grew up in poverty might not appreciate the squandering of money on silly rose petals, but might appreciate a man who brings a meal home more. Again, note that her social context should always be kept in mind because it will affect her outlook and what matters to her and thus how she responds to various things. A woman who's never been sexually molested may not feel anything if a man whom she doesn't know sits beside her on a bus. A woman who's a sexual harassment survivor might become tense, nervous, or otherwise fearful even if the man has shown no signs of being inappropriate.

Again, no absolutes here. Anyway, all that to say, it's always about the context in which the woman lives, filtered through her personality. Generally speaking, if you give your character a reason why she behaves this way, it will be fine. It is mostly a problem if the only reason she behaves the way she does is "because she's a woman".

 

Giving a crap what feminists say. They tend to idealize women, and it's frustrating because good characters are flawed -- think of like a superhero. Superman is weak to kryptonite. Now imagine this is a personality trait instead of an external thing: Apollo Creed is so fearful of getting older and becoming different, despite his normally relentless confidence, that he chooses to fight a Russian bigger and stronger than him just to prove that he's still got it. This makes Creed appealing, because he's a fascinating specimen of humanity. I can think of no female character in literature who strikes me this way -- though I admit I'm mostly into nonfiction these days. A Margaret Thatcher is infinitely more interesting than a Captain Marvel, in my opinion.

Similar, but not exactly the same, is the neckbeard type of female idealization -- the woman is beautiful, can fight, is smart, and is just generally perfect because she represents everything he wishes he could have in a woman. On the one hand, I support free speech and someone can potentially make this type of character work, because anything is possible in writing. However, idealizations are almost always narratively boring, and I recommend steering clear of these.

In the female brain, the language parts develop sooner and faster. We tend to be more in tune with our emotions and better able to describe them to others. In writing, I would suggest that you steer female dialogue more towards relationships and family detail -- like if a family a woman knows is going through something, she's going to want to know about it and talk about it. Men seem to talk more of objective things, like actions or processes. When women have a problem, we generally speak in terms of how we feel and what we want. Also, we generally see colors better (as opposed to men, who see in the dark better). I don't know if that's relevant to your writing, but it's a thing.

I recommend just finding women to hang around. No book will describe women as well as your intuition and subconscious can interpret women. Or you could read Anne of Green Gables. The female personalities in that story are particularly true to life, especially if you happen to be writing about more rural types. Mrs. Lynde the gossip, Marilla the set in her ways spinster, and Anne the talkative girl -- all of these are good in understanding women. Another book you might try is Until we have Faces, an extremely feminine book written by a man. This very subtly deals with feminine nature.

Hm...I don't know that this is specific enough to answer. Women tend to feel threatened by physical intrusions more -- being catcalled, grabbed or touched against the will, people standing too close, that sort of thing. That's the only thing I can think of that's general enough to apply in multiple situations. More specific than that, you're going to need a specific woman.

Don't call yourself arrogant. That's what people say when they want to tear you down. If you don't know about something, you don't know it, but don't call yourself arrogant for that reason. Or any reason, really. It's unhealthy and rarely true.

Cool. I feel like most of the differences between men and women are difficult to describe straight out, and are more often noticed when you happen to write characters correctly. I recommend just learning about women with your subconscious mind and then letting your subconscious mind produce their actions. I dunno, that sort of thing seems to work for me.

 

If you write about a female in love dont make her an idiot. If she's a kicka@#, bada@# then even if she falls in love she will still be that way. She will only just soften a little but dont take her "im queen now kneel" attitude away from her.
As females even when we love it doesn't cloud everything around us. Some of us can still keep our goals first before we let the love train takes us for a ride.
Also, we can compartmentalize things and still do many things at once without losing track. Ive seen my mother take on the phone, do her makeup, drive, and eat all at the same time without missing a beat. Ive done it myself a few times. Ive even did 4 different tasks at once and only forgot the last because i was tired.
So hope this helps some.

 

That must be a cultural thing. It certainly doesn’t gel with how my parents brought up my sister, nor how my mother describes her own upbringing. Neither my wife nor my best friend have ever mentioned being taught to fear the people around them, regardless of sex. It’s certainly not how we’re raising our daughter.

Being terrified all the time sounds exhausting and must make it almost impossible to function like a normal person? How does one form meaningful relationships while living in mortal dread of half the people in the world?

 

Every human being, male or female, that wants to survive any length of time needs to be aware of their surroundings. It’s entry-level human stuff, not in the least bit unique to women.

 

Tbh I know people who are not cautious in the least. Both male and female. Sometimes I'm surprised they were still able to survive this long...

 

What!?

Um, you should?

I used to live in a country where Mickey Finn muggings were still fairly common and we (men) absolutely looked after each other's drinks. I still try not to be too oblivious even in "safe" places. Robbery can happen to anyone, and so can even worse things.

 

Fair point! But men don't see themselves being targeted for those kinds of things as much as girls. You are more wary about aggressive guys than spiked drinks.