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  1. ps102

    ps102 PureSnows102 Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Can someone steal a novel?

    Discussion in 'Genre Discussions' started by ps102, Jun 17, 2022.

    This might sound a bit dumb, but wait!!!! Hear me out.

    The Internet has brought about the age of digital self-publishing using digital platforms like Wattpad or Webnovel — a place where EVERYONE can publish for everyone to view. It's like YouTube, but for books!

    So... I had a thought. Let's hypothesize that we have a very talented writer called Joe, who just finished his first masterpiece, and wants everyone to see it. Joe goes to Wattpad, and posts the entirety of the novel, but like many of them, it gets piled on top of the others on the platform as its ostracized by the algorithm as well as lack of any marketing.

    However, a nifty viewer called Mike who scouts these lowly-viewed stories was surfacing the platform, and came across Joe's story. He sees the much potential in it, despite some mistakes and the draftiness, and downloads it for himself before polishing it in ways his experience knows are more likely to attract agents. Then, he posts it to the agent, and his editing combined with the great talent and work of Joe, earns the admiration of the agent! Before Joe even knows it (if he does it at all), his story is now published under someone else's name! Woot... hurray for Mike!

    Even better, Mike could change the settings and names of the characters while also modifying the story slightly. That'd make it even worse for Joe, who has no name in the industry, to prove himself. Again, that's assuming he finds out at all. The more popular the novel, the more chance he has to find out. And imagine if it turns best-seller, only for Joe to pick it up and slowly come to the realization that he was reading his own work all along. Yikes...

    Just a thought.. An imaginary scenario that may or may not comply with reality.
     
  2. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    It's gross. There are always going to be bad actors out there. I think the chances of manuscript theft are still slim, but it does happen.

    https://www.extremetech.com/internet/268109-an-update-on-my-stolen-book-and-job-on-amazon

    https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/plagiarism-in-the-age-of-self-publishing/485525/

    Seems like it can be a nightmare sometimes based on the stories.
     
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  3. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Can it happen? Yes. Is it likely? No.

    Joe can always sue, if he has a case and his stolen work has made millions, some lawyer will represent him.

    There was a recent case where a manuscript was disputed by two former lovers, both obviously had access to it. Not sure what the resolution was, but even that is rare, but can happen.

    Keep in mind that ideas aren't protected by copyright, and it's more likely a good idea that is poorly executed or marketed will be written by a moret alented writer than having a manuscript stolen. But that would be hard to prove anyway.

    Jurassic Park could have been inspired by that other book or it could have been independently envisioned but it's not considered plagiarism either way.
     
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  4. ps102

    ps102 PureSnows102 Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    But how does Joe prove it? Assuming Mike got the work from a Wattpad post which has 2.7k views and went to successfully publish it, he'd look a lot more legit than Joe. After all, he went through the extraordinary achievement of being published. And doesn't that alone deem you a copyright holder, which I guess depends on the deal? Who would you believe? Some random Internet guy in a digital world where information can be manipulated? Or Mike, the published author?

    I guess you can reference the Wattpad post itself. It's older than the book itself, so that's some evidence I guess. But websites can get hacked (Wattpad did a while ago) so the publisher's much bigger legal resources might try to twist the story towards that end. "Your Honor, Joe over here is simply using a manipulated digital system to prove himself the author."

    I wonder how that would go, actually. Lawyers themselves are actually story-tellers. They gather the evidence and tell a story with it to the Jury in order to present a case for their client. If Joe happens to be a low-earning worker, how much of a chance will he stand against the publisher's much bigger resources? Maybe this has already happened... and we didn't hear about it :)

    Well, I'm just speculating. You're right that its very rare. I just had it in my mind for a long time.

    Ah, my worst nightmare right here. Imagine I write a book with a good core, but badly executed plot, and then a few years later I pick up this one book from the store only to slowly realize throughout reading it that its disturbingly close to what I wrote back then. Heh, that'd be heart-breaking. But I had another thought: Am I selfish from disallowing the whole world of 6 billion people to see that good story executed well just because I, the single person among them, initially came up with it?

    Again, just a thought.
     
  5. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    Can someone? Sure. Why would anyone want to? Because here's the harsh truth. The vast majority of things posted on places like Wattpad are crap. That's also true of places like Amazon. Just because you can throw something up half-assed for free, that doesn't make it any good. Honestly, if anyone is going to "steal" a book and publish it under their own name, the chances they're going to places like Wattpad are minimal since most of that is fanfic and porn anyhow. If they want to "steal" work, they're going to look for things that are saleable in the first place and if these things were saleable, they wouldn't be on Wattpad to begin with. Certainly there are exceptions but those are very, very few and far between.
     
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  6. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    You don't need to be published to get copyright protection. Copyright begins when your pen touches paper in the U.S. (or fingertips touch the keyboard more often). But you may need to register the copyright to sue for damages.

    Files with timestamps, witnesses, beta readers can all be used as evidence to prove you wrote something first. But the chance someone will steal your work is very low and I wouldn't worry about it. I'd just try and make my work as good as I could before sharing it with anyone.

    I haven't posted any of my WIP here in the workshop, not because I'm afraid someone will steal it, but because I'm concerned posting too much could turn off future agents as they may consider it already 'published'. But even that can be considered silly to worry about: the chance anything I write will be something anyone would want to publish is very small, so it's unlikely I'd would derail such possibilities by posting it here. Still, it's a concern I have. So I understand having these unrealistic concerns driven by lofty unlikely goals.

    FYI, you may also want to research 'scènes à faire' as this is what got the Twilight lawsuit dismissed (justifiably so).
     
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  7. ps102

    ps102 PureSnows102 Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    That's true, I remember when I first joined that place a while ago. I did find some good books (which got physically published) but my God... the front page was full of some very... spicy covers. I haven't been there in a while, so I don't know what the current scene is, but I can't imagine its much different.

    Really? I mean I could be wrong but... how would the agents know it's here? This is a relatively small forum.
     
  8. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I know this is true elsewhere, but typically, workshops and places for posting your work are restricted from Google searches. There's no way to know it's there unless you're already a forum member.
     
  9. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I think that's correct, along with the debate forum, but my concern is that most places will specifically state they don't want stuff already published, even on the internet. I'm probably being too paranoid and cynical, but even a lesser known agent gets thousands of queries each month, and I'd want to avoid any reason they might use for a quick rejection.

    I realize that saying "it's not public, only members can view it and it only has 200 non-unique views" should not be an issue, but I don't want to volunteer the info that it's been workshopped online, but I also don't want to not volunteer that info and have it come back to bite me. I know this all sounds delusional, but another factor is I'm concerned about doxxing and if I ever had anything published I wouldn't want anyone to trace anything to my account here and see I said something that is considered offensive 5-10 years from now.
     
  10. harlequin-writes

    harlequin-writes Member

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    Haven't heard of things being stolen from sites such as Wattpad, but occasionally hear of books published on Amazon getting a new cover and author name and being ripped off. Also, most ebooks published on Amazon instantly appear on pirate sites. Unfortunate way of the world.
     
  11. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    They don't want stuff that the general public has access to. That's not true here. They're looking for the right of first publication. You've still got that.
     
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  12. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    There is nothing anyone can do about it, there's no point in being upset.
     
  13. harlequin-writes

    harlequin-writes Member

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    Agreed. Sadly, these pirate sites are like hydra heads.
     
  14. ps102

    ps102 PureSnows102 Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    That risk applies to your writing itself too if you think about it. You could write that same future-offensive word or phrase or opinion in your novel and it would be out there for everyone to see, not just the digital detectives and hackers. I guess that risk is increased in casual talk though.

    Linus Media Group talked about that. They discussed taking down their really old videos in order to prevent them from getting cancelled by some phrase or thing someone digs up. I'm not sure if they went ahead with it though, I don't really follow them closely.
     
  15. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    The people who are going to pirate your book were never potential customers to begin with. They were never going to give you any money. What difference does it make?
     
  16. ps102

    ps102 PureSnows102 Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    This is a common mentality within the video games industry and IT in general. Everyone and their dog went and sailed the seven seas because they 'weren't gonna buy it anyway so might as well just get it'

    Well, the thing is, piracy does provide an option. Either get it for free... or pirate it! The only advantage buying has in this regard is convenience, while piracy can be a pain in the neck sometimes, especially when it comes to software. Let's also not get into the topic of possibly installing malware. I still remember how a friend pirated photoshop and came screaming at me for tech help when his computer gained a mind of its own (it got RATed, probably by some kid).

    So, yes, piracy is a problem. I don't know how big, but it is. Nintendo is going nuts these days about this very thing.
     
  17. petra4

    petra4 Active Member

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    No, you do have a valid point!
    An example: when one's married then 10+ years later, he/she files for divorce.
    Stupid? No . . . Reality? Yes.

    Medical professionals can get involved when a partner is/gets ill, during or after the split. Family usually interferes when the family member is needing backup.

    It's the same scenario with books; writing, editing and publishing. If copyright starts, then lawyers can &/or do get involved. This happens is most cases with Music.

    I've been through these processes so I know what I'm talking about.
     
  18. Vince Higgins

    Vince Higgins Curmudgeon. Contributor

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    This goes for instructional videos on Youtube as well. Maybe ten percent of the ones I looked at about replacing a garage door spring were understandable at all. I have written instructions as part of my profession, and some of them are just sad.
     
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  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    In the U.S., Joe can prove it by demonstrating that Mike had "access" to the work (which appears to be the case here) and there is "substantial similarity" between the two works. If they are extremely similar (so-called "striking similarity") he may not even have to show access.

    There have been cases in the U.S. where liability has been found where "access" to the underlying work is assumed by the court based on the underlying facts and, in some cases, where the accused infringer was not even consciously copying the underlying work.
     
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  20. Vince Higgins

    Vince Higgins Curmudgeon. Contributor

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    Just visited Wattpad. Wow. Just wow.
     
  21. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I can confirm that access to the workshop is limited to members and hidden from search engine crawlers… that means it probably doesn’t count as publication vis a vis first rights…we are not however going to guarantee that it definitely doesn’t… that’s for the individual to make their own minds up about

    from an ip theft point of view it is highly unlikely from the workshop not least because most work in there isnt in publishable condition… most piracy occurs from people taking published works off of Amazon etc not from writers forums… again we aren’t going to guarantee it never happens

    We do occasionally get members who rip off another members work and try to represent it as their own… that spells perma ban as soon as it is proven
     
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  22. ps102

    ps102 PureSnows102 Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Huh? Why would people do that? What benefit is there?
     
  23. Vince Higgins

    Vince Higgins Curmudgeon. Contributor

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    I kid you not. I was once plagiarized by a professor at the university I attended. I had written a letter to the editor of the school paper on some contentious issue that escapes me. It was a State U and probably had to do with a round of budget cutting in the legislature. A few days later a single "letter" to the editor was published under the paper's faculty advisor's byline. There were three paragraphs, one of which was a dead on paraphrase of my concerns. I suspect the other two paragraphs were written by a couple of other ripped off contributors. I was pissed, but since it wasn't a paid piece, I said nothing. He wasn't in my academic discipline but I looked him up through various avenues. This was easy since he was quite newsworthy himself in this so called student publication. He had a monumental ego.
     
  24. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    Not to stray too far from the original question, but ... might this be a reason for using ISBNs on e-books even though they aren't required?
     
  25. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    that'd make no difference whatsoever...someone who's pirating an ebook isnt going to be put off by an isbn
     
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