1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,088
    Likes Received:
    7,421

    Using sparse dialog.

    Discussion in 'Dialogue Development' started by deadrats, Jul 14, 2022.

    Why is it that when I cut down on dialog my writing seems better? I don't believe I have any problems creating good and believable dialog, but sometimes I can get caught up in a conversation and let it go on too long. I find myself cutting and condensing dialog during the editing stage. And now I can catch it when conversations are too long and if it's actually necessary for a character to open his mouth, quoting exactly what he's saying. So, the way I handle dialog has changed. I don't think it's as necessary as I used to think it was.

    Let's just admit it. Dialog can be fun to write. It's just when it's overdone it can really hurt the writing and the story. How do you find that line and strike a balance?
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,460
    Likes Received:
    13,503
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    I remember Robert McKee saying to cut as much dialogue as you can, in fact I believe he said for a first draft you should write it with none! Apparently it forces you to do things differently, though just now I can't remember what exactly. I guess you need to do everything through descprition, scene and narration. More specifically I guess it makes you write more about the interactions between the people involved in the conversation, rather than doing it all through their words and subtext.

    I tend to overdo dialogue at times and then have to cut some out later. Can't say I have any protocol or technique for it though—just if it feels a bit overlong I'll cut as much as I can.
     
    Seven Crowns and deadrats like this.
  3. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2020
    Messages:
    722
    Likes Received:
    455
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I'm going overboard with the dialogue as we speak. Well, about five minutes ago, anyway. I hate it. But it's so much fun.
    I enjoy character interactions, and a good comeback from one character to another is always great. Unfortunately, dialogue is also rather easy. Need something explained? Have the new guy ask why. Stuck progressing to the next bit? Write some snappy dialogue and finish it with the sarge telling the men to shut up and move on. Need to make word count minimum? Quick bit of conversation!

    When I look at my page right now, without reading it, the nice chunky paragraphs sit better on the page. The dialogue parts--skinny, and lots of open space--kinda whisper "you couldn't do it, could you?" to me. If that makes any sense... Let me know if it does, because it feels like I should have done this post as a conversation...
     
    Writeorflight and deadrats like this.
  4. FlyingGuppy

    FlyingGuppy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2016
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    20
    Depends on the medium, but I'm glad McKee already got a mention. "Sparse dialogue has salience and power." The less dialogue there is, the more an audience will pay attention to what IS said. Especially on-screen (compared to book or stage) because most of the information we're recieving is through our eyes -- so whenever a character speaks, we know to listen.

    In a script, dialogue should be last-resort way to communicate an idea or plot point because it's inherently temporal -- it takes TIME for story points to be conveyed this way. So cutting back in favour of visuals and action will always make a screenplay punchier. As for prose, yeah, dialogue can be a lot of fun to write, but we should be ruthless for the sake of pace. If a line doesn't move the story or reveal character, it should probably go.
     
    deadrats likes this.
  5. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    Dialogue generally needs the same consideration for telling (summarizing dialogue) and showing (actual dialogue) that the narration does.

    I like sparsity contrasted with monologues, and variety in general.
     
  6. Mogador

    Mogador Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2021
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    538
    My guess, speaking as a reader rather than a writer:

    You and you readers are primed by the real world to be wary of a lot of jaw jaw, so no matter how well you write it, the readership associate spoken verbosity with an absence of progress.

    How often do you hear great 'dialogue' that moves the day forward, explains things that really needed to be explained, in your day to day life? Couple times a day, maybe, if you keep especially luminous company?

    Instead we are used to conversations mostly being a pleasant holding activity or, if the topic is important, then its usually unstructured thinking out loud, semi-synchronised mooing that gives our brains time to figure things out.

    It has always fascinated me how utterly unlike actual conversations even the best fictional conversations are. That's probably because there's only so much of our own inanity we can bear to see reflected back at us.
     
    Xoic likes this.
  7. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    281
    I teach writers what I call the three phases of dialogue writing:

    Phase 1: Can't write dialogue for crap. Nobody talks like that. Everyone sounds the same and they sound like a writer trying to clear notes off their desk.
    Phase 2: Everything sounds just like people talk. You get everything, introductions, repeated stuff, hemming and hawing. The writer thinks, I finally got this.
    Phase 3: Edit, edit, edit. The job of a writer isn't to tell us everything. The job of the writer is to give us those things that are meaningful and cut to the chase. There is little value to content that bores us, introduces us, informs us, makes it feel like endless rambling, much like this post.
     
    AntPoems, Mogador and Xoic like this.
  8. Moon

    Moon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,573
    Likes Received:
    9,339


    Really liked this video.
     
    Gary Wed likes this.
  9. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2021
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    He spends 18 minutes talking about brevity o_O

    "How to write dialogue" is the same as "how to write."
    The only difference is that it's the characters' presented or public voice.
    But if the reader has a faint presence in the story too, and the narrator is always to some extent presenting to them, this isn't really a difference.
     
  10. Thomas Larmore

    Thomas Larmore Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2019
    Messages:
    314
    Likes Received:
    233
    I write a lot of dialog. Maybe, I should shorten it.
     
  11. FFBurwick

    FFBurwick Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2022
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    33
    My writing earlier was lacking in dialogue. I heard from others that dialogue could be used more than I was showing. So I have awareness now and connect with characters I use for having their dialogue shown, and I do better with my writing using that.
     
  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,088
    Likes Received:
    7,421
    I think all dialog is considered telling. Am I wrong, no?
     
  13. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    I more meant the difference in narration between:
    And
    The former fits my definition of narrative telling, while the latter is showing IMO. Both have their roles.
     
    Xoic likes this.
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    Messages:
    6,088
    Likes Received:
    7,421
    @Not the Territory -- I see what you're saying. The only thing is that all dialog is telling. The narrator is telling what they or another character said. In your example if the former line was not dialog it would be showing. But even leaving off the dialog tag the quotes let the reader know it's something a character said. Therefore, it makes it telling. Does that make senses?
     
  15. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2019
    Messages:
    1,242
    Likes Received:
    1,674
    Is there an online resource we both trust? I quickly Googled this to the see the common opinion and most sources say that direct dialogue is showing.

    Anyway, no, what you say doesn't really parse for me. Just to be clear on "if the former line was not dialogue it would be showing." In my example, the former line is not dialogue at all. It's narrative telling that dialogue happened.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "All dialogue is telling. The narrator is telling what they or another character said" because by that reasoning the entire story is telling, given that everything has to be 'told' by the narrator.

    Dialogue is presented such that the reader is to infer character and a wide variety of emotions from it. When you write Stacy told them about the mosquitoes you're circumventing that chance for the reader to glean how Stacy would mention the mosquitos (word choice, body language, so on), but keeping the narrative pace so you can focus on more important things. It's in the same vein as writing One of Stacy's tires blew out on her way to the pub, but she handled it calmly thanks to her late Father's wisdom (telling) instead of showing the scene where she changed her tire, and demonstrating her calmness through her actions and thinking.

    I think this is mainly a semantic disagreement more than a functional one, at any rate.
     
    evild4ve and Xoic like this.
  16. evild4ve

    evild4ve Critique is stranger than fiction Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2021
    Messages:
    1,022
    Likes Received:
    1,145
    I'd second that: this seems like it's just that perennial difficulty with show-don't-tell as creative writing doctrine
    It's that everything tells, but the story doesn't reside in what's told, so much as what's shown in the process.
    So the saying should be "tell in such a way that it shows" but that wouldn't be catchy, and there are hundreds of different directions the extra precision could be taken in if we let the core idea be expanded

    (1) I was feeling mighty guilty about what we were going to do, so I told her: "Ma, put the rooster outside would you? I can't stand how he's looking at us."

    (2) I was feeling mighty guilty about what we were going to do, and I couldn't stand the rooster looking at us, so I told Ma to put him outside.

    I think (1) and (2) contain the same information, but by virtue of it's being dialogue (1) shows more than it tells. And using dialogue might help find a reductive edit to:-

    (3) "Ma, put the rooster outside would you? He's watching us."
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
    Gary Wed and Not the Territory like this.
  17. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2019
    Messages:
    207
    Likes Received:
    281
    Interesting concept, and of course true, but why stop there. Every story, front to back is tell. To me, the real issue is SHORTCUT. Are we shortcutting story by laying it out there in summary. And of course we are only pretending to not do so if we have actors standing around giving out vast batches of info that might have actually been acted out on the stage.
     
    evild4ve likes this.
  18. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    12,460
    Likes Received:
    13,503
    Location:
    Way, way out there
    (1) Directly reported dialogue. The way you can tell easily is that it's done in present tense and has quotation marks around it. It's the words of the character, rather than the narrator. The reader is being shown directly what's being said in the character's own words. While you're in direct dialogue you're momentarily in scene rather than narration.

    (2) Indirectly reported dialogue. It's in past tense with no quotation marks, and is being reported to the reader by the narrator. Who in 'close' 1st person is also the character, but serving as narrator at the moment because we're in narration (where narrative summary aka 'telling' is done).
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
    Gary Wed likes this.
  19. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 21, 2009
    Messages:
    9,502
    Likes Received:
    9,758
    Location:
    England
    Well it didn’t do Iain Banks any harm. He once said in an interview that when writing his first, and now cult, novel The Wasp Factory, he would have the protagonists’s wayward brother make one of his phone calls, and have the two chat for a while whenever he was struggling with the plot or how to advance the story. I’ve read a few of IB novels and largely irrelevant and lengthy dialogues seem to be a trait of his.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice