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  1. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    If the US were a party to the ICC, and the POTUS committed war crimes, would US agencies arrest him?

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Mars125, Mar 24, 2023.

    This is such a specific and theoretical question that I can't imagine it having been discussed anywhere before.

    Basically I have an alternate reality/history America, where the nation has descended into civil war. A seceded Texas and a defecting military lead to state collapse and spillover into Mexico and Canada. (sounds stretchy, I know, but the details make it work) In a final battle for DC, the Texans capture the President and then they transfer him to the ICC for a war crimes trial. I have two options:

    Option A) The USA is a party to the ICC; the President goes on trial for all war crimes conducted in the story (and there's a lot), all at once, at The Hague; he is sentenced to life without parole and given back to the Texans to imprison.

    Option B) The USA is not a party to the ICC; the President is only tried at The Hague for crimes committed against Mexico and Canada; he is transferred back to the Texans for imprisonment, who conduct their own trial for the domestic crimes and sentence him to death.

    I have about the past 20 years to work with since the point of divergence, and so I could easily have the US believably be party to the ICC. Or I could choose not to do that and it would be equally believable. Either option can be made to work with the ending I have in mind. One problem though:

    I need him to remain safe in DC at the White House until the moment the battle for the city erupts. This part is critical because the Texans capture him as soon as he tries to move. If another agency like the FBI or US Marshalls end up executing the ICC's warrant, it kind of screws up the plot because the Texans need to be the hero here for narrative reasons.

    So... would US authorities arrest the President on an ICC warrant? Do I have to go with Option B, or can Option A be made to work somehow?
     
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  2. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Since the US is one of the few counties that does not accept the authority of the ICC I can't see them handing anyone over there for war crimes. And if you decide to change that in your story and make the US part of the international court system, I think you might want to include a brief part in the story of how that happened, given the US has never been a part of them in the past. That being said, it sounds like you have an interesting story going on.
     
  3. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    It can be explained fairly easily in my background: Y2K was the divergence point, resulting in entirely different candidates in 2000, and the President from '01 to '09 was a staunch humanitarian who may have been very interested in joining the ICC. Really I've got a setup here that can go either direction with equal believability.
     
  4. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    If the President has so much control over the government that he is able to commit widespread war crimes without any consequences until a rebel force smashes down his door, why would any federal agency respect the authority of the ICC?

    For some parallels, just look at the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War. Russia isn’t a party to the ICC, but they are to the Geneva Conventions. Russia has violated them numerous times, but you don’t see the FSB or politsiya or Investigative Committee going after Putin. Why? Because anyone with actual power is one of his creatures. The same is likely to be true of this President. This alternate United States might pay lip service to the ICC just as Russia currently does to the Geneva Conventions, but they’re not going to police themselves.

    The only scenario I can think of where that happens is something like the Attorney General or the Director of the FBI executing a coup at the last second, capturing the President, and offering him to the ICC as a way to shore up their own newfound power and look better on the international stage. And this could happen regardless, because it wouldn’t really be about accountability or the ICC. It would be political gamesmanship.
     
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  5. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    Very good points, and I have established this President character as a blooming dictator. He has no issues with firing people he sees as disloyal, and as the conflict drags on, he grows ever-more paranoid. I think this could work, maybe I could include a bit about purging the FBI - just wondering if any other agencies should be included in the purging? US Marshals perhaps?
     
  6. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    If he’s angling for dictatorship, even unconsciously, he’ll likely purge the upper echelons of any agency under his control and install loyalists who do the same to the rank and file.

    Depending on his politics, some agencies may not require purges. For example, Trump was very popular with the Border Patrol while quietly loathed by many members of the FBI and CIA. Your fictional President could be in a similar position. Or he might have built his career in one agency or another and still wield considerable influence among its members. Like, imagine if J. Edgar Hoover had become President.
     
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  7. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    There is a map of all of the countries here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court.
    The USA doesn’t recognize the authority of the ICC.

    But if we did, it’d be no different than extradition to a country whose court we do recognize. There are a lot of steps and oversight. The foreign warrant goes to the state department, who then gets a judge to validate it and make sure it meets certain strict criteria, then an arrest would work the same as any other time, locals would probably execute the warrant, hand you over to the feds, who then hand you over to the country you committed the crime in.

    Presidents will almost never have this, we do not hand over anyone if our courts say the foreign warrant is political and simply being head of state covers that fairly broadly. It’d have to be a pretty egregious crime. Bush is not going to see an international court for lying about WMDs in Iraq, torturing prisoners, or using cluster bombs. It’d have to be something like full on genocide. Half the country doesn’t want to arrest a president for domestic crimes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
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  8. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    Oh yeah, it's big - the dude slung three tactical nukes at Mexico when they dared to intervene against him on behalf of Texas. (didn't happen easily either, he fired three people to get it done)

    So ultimately I suppose it would come down to a matter of loyalty in the face of his actions: he'd want people who viewed his attacks as legitimate in charge of the entities you mention, like the State Department. I suppose this will play into my earlier response about purging federal agencies.

    Meanwhile, much of the US military is splitting and commands are fracturing at every operational level, so there's that to consider as well. By the time the battle for DC erupts, the President will be dealing with mutinies across the armed services.

    He does have considerable loyalty among the FBI; he used them as a personal army at one point pretty much. The CIA would probably be neutral on him. Border Patrol likes him, for sure. The Attorney General would be one of his cronies, obviously, as you can't be a dictator with your chief legal executive against you - and since the US Marshals are at the AG's command, maybe they don't even need a purge? I'll probably have him drain his Cabinet at some point, though, as they will likely try to invoke the 25th Amendment on him.

    I'm starting to think my Option A ending could be made to work, which will allow me to keep the final few chapters a little cleaner.
     
  9. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Pretty much to windup prosecuted for war crimes as a National leader you have to lose a war so badly that you fall from power

    no police apparatus will arrest their own leader on an ICC writ … he has to first fall from power then be handed over by his successor or occupier

    vis there is is currently an icc writ for putin, but no one really expects the Russians to arrest him because of it
     
  10. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I doubt even J. Edgar Hoover would have contemplated arresting a sitting POTUS. That would amount to a coup d'etat.
     
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  11. KiraAnn

    KiraAnn Senior Member

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    Wait - you said the seceding Texans captured the US President and turned him over to the ICC.

    So what does it matter if the US recognizes the ICC or not? And why would Texas turn him over to the ICC is they were planning to try him in a Texas court?

    Those parts don't compute.
     
  12. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    To understand, you have to understand the ICC.
    The ICC doesn't have jurisdiction in nations that don't recognize it.
    If the US does not recognize the ICC, the POTUS cannot be charged for crimes within the US's borders. He can only be charged for the crimes in Mexico and Canada.

    Secondly, the ICC has no permanent prison facilities of its own. This is why the Texans will transfer him to the ICC, because they'll get him back in order to imprison him long-term. Then when they get him back, they put him on trial for the domestic crimes and put him to death for them.

    I've thought of an ending that requires the Texan tribunal happening, so basically we'll get two court scenes in this story - which is good for the story IMO.
     
  13. KiraAnn

    KiraAnn Senior Member

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    I'm suggesting you just leave the ICC out of it.
     
  14. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    The ICC is literally the entire story. It's formatted as an ICC document.

    I suggest you stay out of my story, please.
     
  15. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    If the us does not recognise the ICC the ICC cannot try a US citizen for crimes committed anywhere, without a UN Security Council resolution ( and since the US is a UNSC member and would veto that’s effectively not an option)

    so for your story your only options are to either leave the ICC out, have the US recognise it, or change the rules under which it operates

    also ICC investigations are drawn out affairs which can take years to complete

    sonce your president has nuked mexico I’d tend to suggest that the Texans hand him over to mexico , who would probably put him against a wall in short order
     
  16. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    I'm not leaving the ICC out. Period, end of discussion.
     
  17. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    The whole Texas secession thing is a surprise to the reader that happens about 1/3 of the way through the story. It has to be an ICC document that it's formatted as so as not to spoil that plot point.

    You don't get to boss me around, simply help me find a way that works. Or don't and I'll figure it out myself. Honestly I'd prefer the latter.
     
  18. Mars125

    Mars125 Banned

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    What I need to happen is for the Texans to have a reason, separate from the ICC's trial, to put the former president to death.

    Is there perhaps a way that an ICC recognized by the US may refuse to prosecute the domestic war crimes? That's a way I could go, I think.
     
  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    with an attitude like that so would we
    :closed:
     
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