1. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    Direct Thought or Narrator?

    Discussion in 'Point of View, and Voice' started by Bone2pick, Mar 4, 2023.

    The following excerpt is from The Color of Magic by Terry Pratchett.

    “Have you heard of the city of Bes Palargic?”​

    “Well, I didn’t spend much time in Trob. I was just passing through, you know—“​

    “Oh, it’s not in Trob. I speak Trob because there are many beTrobi sailors in our ports. Bes Palargic is the major seaport of the Agatean Empire.”​

    “Never heard of it, I’m afraid.”​

    Twoflower raised his eyebrows. “No? It is quite big. You sail turnwise from the Brown Islands for about a week and there it is. Are you all right?”​

    He hurried around the table and patted the wizard on the back. Rincewind choked on his beer.​

    The Counterweight Continent!
    Is the last sentence a direct thought of Rincewind’s, the character who choked on his beer? Or might it have come from the narrator? After all, there are no italics, nor a “he thought” tag to clearly pin it on the POV character; and the author uses a stronger than average narrator voice throughout the story (in my opinion).
     
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  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Seems like third person deep (aka third close), making it the character's thoughts. But I can't tell just from this one example. What POV is the story written in? Does Pratchett use omniscient?

    I remember the same thing being done, rather jarringly, and only very occasionally, in The DaVinci Code. It doesn't seem to be in third deep, but all of a sudden you get untagged inner monologue from a character.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2023
  3. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I'm pretty sure it's Rincewind. The biggest clue for me is the exclamation matches the drop out wizard's unsettled state.

    Pratchet does indeed have a strong omniscient narrator (more prominent in the later books IMO), but I've just finished Guards! Guards! and eight books in I still can't recall the narrator himself being surprised by or exclaiming anything.
     
  4. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I believe he’s written this book in third-person omniscient. In case it helps, here’s one more excerpt from earlier in the story where Pratchett used a thought tag. In this scene the POV character is Weasel.

    Soon the continent of flame became a series of islands, each one growing smaller as the dark tide rose. And up from the city of fumes and smoke rose a broiling cloud of steam, covering the stars. Weasel thought that it looked like some dark fungus or mushroom.​
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
  5. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Let's start by noticing that Pratchett is maybe the last writer on the planet to learn how to handle view from. Seriously flawed in that department. I love much of his work, but I find myself having to ignore the many, many cases of view confusion, and confusion generated by a couple of problems he seems to have never overcome.
    To begin with, he does a kind of limited omniscience that seems completely out of control, and is really just head hopping. Omniscience isn't a free pass. It requires a viewpoint plan and writer control, even from those who are making the big bucks. But, since he is established he gets away with it.
    In this case he has a 2nd issue, and that is not employing the paragraph effectively, leaving the reader confused.

    Here, he is using naked dialogue (or naked thought), which can certainly work, especially if only two actors are on the page. However, naked dialogue relies upon maintaining paragraph integrity. Here he has none, so his indulgence leaves the reader completely muddled.

    Now, in this case we have paragraphing doing the work, so we don't need dialogue tags or filters. We can catch on to the pattern of using same actor/same paragraph, new actor/new paragraph form, and thus be less reliant upon direction finders. We would assume that the wizard is the one thinking. This would be even more effective (and less head hopping), should the wizard have been designated the viewpoint prior to this because internal monologue is the domain of the view and if we just bandy it about, we are head hopping (Pratchett's biggest flaw).

    Conversely, we might have written:



    In this case Twoflowers must be the viewpoint and the one engaging in internal monologue (assuming paragraph integrity and assuming it isn't Pratchett's normal head hopping flaw.)

    In either case, it's impossible to say that the line about counterweight is a simple direct thought without some credit because we can't even know that it's a thought without more content. This is why it's best to make it direct thought in internal monologue, allowing for the least alteration.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  6. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Here's a similarly puzzling conundrum, from Dan Brown's DaVinci Code:
    What's up with that 'Where the hell am I?' He does this only occasionally (I've only seen the beginning of the book). Best I can tell the actual POV is objective, aside from these odd outbursts and what seem to be accidental dips into somebody's thoughts, like 'tinny, unfamiliar ring.' and 'the fog began to lift.'
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  7. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    You’re a gentleman and a scholar @Gary Wed . That’s a first-rate breakdown of the excerpt. :superagree:
     
  8. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    It looks like a regular thought-quote to me, which would only be weird if he normally italicizes thought-quotes but didn't do it here for some reason.

    I can't tell if it's objective POV from the excerpt. That takes several chapters to determine, but it sounds like you've read it whereas I haven't so I don't know. But I seriously doubt Dan Brown has the chops to pull that off. Crazy hard to stay consistent and never delve into thoughts or emotions. I don't know how Cormac McCarthy does it, but then again, I don't know how Cormac McCarthy does anything. The man doesn't even need commas to win Pulitzers.
     
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  9. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I'm not sure it's in objective, but most of the time it seems like it. It's either sloppy objective or sloppy third person limited that often slides into objective. I suspect it's like what @Gary Wed said about Pratchett, I don't think Dan Brown really has a firm grasp on POV.
     
  10. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Not hurting his sales.
     
  11. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Pratchett's head-hopping only bothered me at first when I had assumed the story was limited third. Once I realised it was free-roaming omniscient, I had no problem with it.

    I would consider it a failure on his part if he was attempting limited third in the first place. I think what throws people off guard is how long the unlimited narrator spends with a particular viewpoint before leaping around for designed effect.
     
  12. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Twoflower raised his eyebrows. “No? It is quite big. You sail turnwise from the Brown Islands for about a week and there it is. Are you all right?” He hurried around the table and patted the wizard on the back.

    Rincewind choked on his beer. The Counterweight Continent!
    They just needed to move some paragraph breaks. Or that's how I read it. Maybe you could use italics on the last part but that depends on how the previous pages are formatted. I probably would have used italics.
     
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  13. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    One thing that seems to have been forgotten here is the Mr. Pratchett was writing comedic fantasy. In many cases the confusion a reader may experience, is resolved in the comedy. His use of confusion reminds me of what Monty Python did in many cases. Based on his age at the time of writing colour of magic, I would not be surprised to find they were an influence to his style.
     
  14. Bone2pick

    Bone2pick Conspicuously Conventional Contributor

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    I came across this passage while reading Jack London’s Martin Eden and thought of this thread. The first sentence of the second paragraph is punctuated with an exclamation mark. I would think that’s the voice of the narrator.

    Later, Ruth’s anxiety found justification. Martin and Professor Caldwell had got together in a conspicuous corner, and though Martin no longer wove the air with his hands, to Ruth’s critical eye he permitted his own eyes to flash and glitter too frequently, talked too rapidly and warmly, grew too intense, and allowed his aroused blood to redden his cheeks too much. He lacked decorum and control, and was in decided contrast to the young professor of English with whom he talked.​

    But Martin was not concerned with appearances! He had been swift to note the other’s trained mind and to appreciate his command of knowledge.​
     
  15. JBean

    JBean Active Member

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    I admit this excerpt you shared (never read this book) reads as very familiar in style to my own. It's a very comfortable style, I feel, whatever it may be referred to.
     

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