1. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    How much editing needs to be done?

    Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Bakkerbaard, May 18, 2023.

    So, I've got this question that's gonna sound like I'm trying to blow my own horn, but it's really out of some concern that I ask.
    Is it normal that there are very few changes I have to after I get the manuscript back from an editor?

    Granted, there's a bit of a process preceding a visit to the editor. For some context:
    I don't even think about going to betareaders until I have a complete work from Prologue to Epilogue. They usually get version four at the earliest.
    By the time I've dealt with all the beta feedback, I'll be up to or around version six, which will go to an editor.

    I do have enough faith in the people I hired, that's not the issue, but I got my manuscript back and I find that there is very little I need to change, or rewrite. A little paragraph here or there, but that's it.
    And that does not compute.
    To me, it's not logical that an amateur has a near-finished product after an editor was supposed to tear it apart.

    I hear stories about (professional) people still fiddling with their manuscript at, like, version thirteen. This makes me worry that my story isn't up to par.
     
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  2. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Depends on the editor. I've had some of them only do a few house-style edits while others would edit incredibly deep. Then it's me accepting all (almost all) of the tracking changes in multiple waves. Thousands of adjustments. Takes weeks to get through that . . .

    It also depends on you and how you've gotten those words on paper. Not all first drafts are really first drafts. Or I should say, your first draft might be much more shaped than your neighbor's first draft. It just depends on how careful you are building your lines, which usually means you're writing slower. I fall into that camp. I dwell on stories until I feel them. Then I at least sketch an outline (unless the story is absurdly short.)

    I suppose you could just have your act together too. Maybe you do, haha! I'm not one of those people--takes me a lot of edits before I send anything out--but I know such people exist. Old irascible Harlan Ellison (RIP) was famous for one pass, no-edit pieces. Of course he was famous enough to get away with it, but that still takes an incredible amount of skill. I can't imagine getting your words right the first time.

    My low was 3 edits. My high was 53. (Yes, I keep track of these type of things.) I usually edit around 20 times, but my first draft is really draft-10 because of all the adjustments I make in draft-1. I can justify doing that because I already understand everything about the story because I daydreamed so long about it. I already know I'll finish. Maybe your approach is similar, but you're even better at minimizing the edits. (I wish I could do the same because those high edits are an incredible weakness.) It's possible to do a lot of work before you even start typing.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
  3. Not the Territory

    Not the Territory Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    So meta. He edited his post.

    @Bakker I personally wouldn't think anything of it (other than a well-deserved pat on the back,). You could simply be getting better at writing or editing, or this is an anomalous case where you knocked it out of the park with your own particular skillset. In the end what matters is that people are buying it and leaving mostly good reviews.

    If I concerned myself with process parity then I'd have to go get hit by a car and spend my afternoons smashing coke and alpraz for starters. Though I've never had my work looked over by an editor, so what do I know?
     
  4. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    Slower. Yes. I wouldn't say glacial, but global warming is a threat.

    I would love to say yes, but just now I got distracted by a cat lying on its back.

    That's why I tried not to use the word "draft". I don't really know if I have drafts.
    I need the first paragraph to know what happens in the second, so to get to the end of a chapter, I need to write the whole chapter. I suppose I could put a [FIGHT SCENE HERE] placeholder, but it'll be distracting me even if I don't see it. I know it's there. Sitting there, mocking me.
    By the time I finish the last chapter, I'll have a complete first draft/version that less discerning readers would probably even consider publishable.

    They do not.
    One person in the UK probably clicked on the wrong book, but that's it. Doesn't matter. I've low expectations, so all that matters to me at the moment is finishing the book.
    Doesn't say anything about the writing quality, though. I've just done pretty much no promotion so far, and now I'm holding back investments there until my second book is ready to go.
     
  5. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    It sounds like we have the exact same approach. Everything you've said is what I do too. I recognize it all. So you're not alone.
     
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  6. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, brothers in ink! When Steven Spielberg is filming my book, I'll talk you up, if you promise to do the same.
    There. We just doubled our chances.
     
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  7. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    To me, it is just a draft until I submit it. Doesn't matter how many editing passes or revisions.
     
  8. GrahamLewis

    GrahamLewis Seeking the bigger self Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    I'm curious about what sort of editor you have hired -- is it a vetted professional, or someone you have worked with before and found useful? Why do you have faith in them? Could it simply be that this editor is not doing his/her/their job?
     
  9. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    Personally, I work with the story ninjas. Randy and Laura are both storygrid certified. I discovered them because the did the editing for the Pineapple Express by Scott Mann.
     
  10. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    Got them (it's actually a mother and daughter) off Fiverr. Good reviews.
    The work itself was good too. Pointed out all the bits that raised questions. No complaints there.
    The whole issue I have is that I don't know what an editor is supposed to do, and based on the editors I've worked with thus far all did pretty much the same, I think they're good.
    To be honest, I always assumed more cutting of paragraphs and suggesting that scene in chapter five would work better in chapter eleven.

    So, yeah. Basically I'm just buying cars without having a license.

    Had a quick look at their site. Seems like a pro bunch, which suggests they're too busy and outside my budget. Would they work with an utter amateur?
     
  11. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    They are fairly busy, but they also give you an estimate of time frame. They offer both book coaching and Developmental editing, so yes the work with utter amateurs. They charge by word count, but that gets you a detailed report of the issues they see, and a zoom conference to go over the project, and offer suggestions for fixes. As I recall, there wasn't a charge for the initial discovery meeting, but my memory may be off.

    The last report I got from them was a 32 page breakdown of the story. It broke the story down by the storygrid method and by save the cat. It works for me. If this is a serious consideration for you, send Randy an email, and see what he says. It can't hurt and might be a benefit. Mention this site, I gave Randy a heads up.

    Disclaimer I don't receive any compensation from Storyninjas. And would not recommend them if I wasn't happy with their work.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  12. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    @w. bogart I'll finish the fixes my current editor gave me since I'm in the closing chapters now, and then I'll reach out to the ninjas. Even if only because that was cool to say.
    Thanks!
     
  13. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    Any time. Glad to help.
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Sometimes or often the real editing starts after a story is accepted by a publisher. This is true for both magazines/journals and book publishers. Once one of those editors gets ahold of your story that can be when the real editing and revision work begins. That's been my experience.

    FYI -- I edit and polish the crap out of my writing before I submit anywhere. And even when I think a story might be close to flawless, the editors I've worked with have all helped elevate my work more than I could probably do on my own. I also don't really push back at all when it comes to the changes an editor wants, but at this point they're buying my work and I trust that they know best. I also think it helps to be easy to work with.

    I have never hired an editor so I'm not sure how different that experience is.
     
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  15. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    So do I. I go over it several times, polishing, cutting, taking in comments, polishing and cutting some more. Unfortunately, that means by the time a professional gets their hands on it I will have killed so many darlings that I break a cold sweat when they tell me to kill another one.

    Despite the above, I do believe this holds true. Too bad it's important advice that not a lot of people heed.
     
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  16. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    I do work with a professional editor. I get detailed reports of what problems they see. Then we have a zoom conference to go over things. There is a fair amount of give and take over the issues.
     
  17. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Unless you have worked a lot with an editor before it is unusual for work to be so clean it doesn’t need much

    when I first started working with my editor I thought my work was perfect and needed nothing much… until it came back with so many issues highlighted it looked like the page had been dipped in red ink

    I almost cried and it took me two weeks to accept that her advice was valid

    that was about three years and fifteen books ago. The most recent manuscript she edited she picked up only three things… careless errors like forgetting which leg a character lost in a previous book, or writing that a character has a 40mm handgun instead of .40 calibre

    For the Op you might want to consider posting an excerpt in the workshop to get other opinions on how finished or otherwise it is
     
  18. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    Oh, I've been there. And I'm still there every time I finish a chapter.
    "I don't see how I could improve on this."
    And then I send it to my girlfriend.
    Yeah, there's room for improvement alright.

    Also familiar.
    Have you ever done any of these:
    "They're too dumb to understand me."
    "Pff, they're just not paying attention!"
    "I'm not gonna change this. It' too good to change. Why can't they see that?"

    Dude, what?!
    You managed fifteen books in three years?
    I need to step up my game.

    I could. But I wouldn't know which part to excerptifiy. It's either gonna be too little to get a good idea from, too much to flood a post with, and always too little context.
    Then there's an issue I keep having with asking people to do stuff for me when I already know I'm not able to one day return the favor.

    Either way, I've got a new editor on it. A forum-member-verified pro, so I'm sure there will be more things to improve this time around.
     
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  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    not to brag but I’ve written far more than that in three years, these days I usually crank out a first draft per month, sometimes more the fastest I’ve written one is 9 days for an 85k word manuscript

    it’s 15 that have so far gone through the editing and proofreading process ( of which I’ve self pubbed 8 and am currently discussing a trad deal on another set of three) the other four are to be self published and are currently waiting for covers
     
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  20. JoanneLawrence

    JoanneLawrence Banned

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    I've been writing for a while, but Wattpad is the only place where I post my stories. So I've never used editing services, and I have no idea what is better - to have more or less things to change. But now I'm working on a book, which I'd like to publish it. I have half of it ready, I've already made some changes a few times, and I want to send it to the editor to see how it will work. It's a children's book, so I'm a little bit worried because it's not that easy to impress kids now, and there are already a lot of good books. I talked to one friend of mine, and he recommended me this service https://penfellow.com/childrens-book-editor/, which I decided to use. I've already sent that part of the book which I need to proofread, and I decided to ask here if someone is familiar with that service or can recommend me something else. I think in a week I'll receive my writing back, and we will see what it will be there. And I'm also a little bit worried that I'll not agree with the editor's changes, and I don't know what to do in such situations. On the one hand, that person has for sure more experience, but on the other hand, it's my book, and I have to decide what should be written. Do you always accept all the editor's changes?
     
  21. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    A good editor will not directly make changes. They will give you a report of the problems they see, and suggest changes. Really good editors will give you the why behind their suggestions.
     
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  22. Bakkerbaard

    Bakkerbaard Contributor Contributor

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    You will definitely not agree with the editor's changes. You will also tell yourself that the editor doesn't understand your story because it's too special. You will probably tell yourself that they were bad reader and missed the part where you explained the thing they suggested be changed.

    What you will do in that situation is, in my opinion, far more difficult than writing a book.
    You need to explain to yourself that your story is not special. That it is, in fact, at the risk of being generic. And you'll need to tell yourself that the editor is trying to help you make the book the best it can be.
    Mind you: This isn't a personal attack. I'm really just projecting. My writing is special, you see. Nobody understands me. ;o)

    Should you accept all suggested changes? No. Like @w. bogart said, a good editor will give you the why in addition to the change, and the why should weigh more in your decision than the actual change.

    While it's mostly true that you decide what's written, in the editing process it helps to detach yourself from it. In the end you're still the boss of your book, but doctors don't operate on their own children either.

    Do they? I don't actually know. But I wrote it down, so it must be true...
     
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  23. w. bogart

    w. bogart Contributor Contributor Blogerator

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    I don't know anything about penfellows. I personally work with story ninjas.

    There have been several times I disagreed with their suggestions. Each time I dug into the why behind the suggestion. And the result was making changes based on the why, that I felt worked for my story.
     
  24. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    This is worth noting again. You might get back edits where your first instinct is to resist or even blame the editor for "not getting it" or whatever. It can be really hard to get back this kind of feedback and editorial guidance. Like really hard and upsetting. But sleep on it. Think about it for a while. Those edits aren't going anywhere. And especially if you aren't on any sort of deadline take some time to think about it. Wait until you're no longer feeling upset or overly resistant.

    I know I can sometimes feel both overwhelmed and upset when getting back edits. But that feeling does seem to pass in order for me to get down to work.
     
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