Questions about plagiarism and copyright

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by blubttrfl, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    the works of both of those writers have been in the public domain for quite a while, so they're not relevant to this discussion... nor would it be 'plagiarism' to use a line from carroll's work...
     
  2. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    as arron noted above, if you're only referencing/paraphrasing them and not quoting them directly, you don't need permission, but must cite the source...

    of course you can include test results and doctor's recommendations that were told/given to you in the course of dealing with your case... you can even quote the doctors, as long as you quote them accurately... if you've done your homework and researched similar books, you'll have seen this is done all the time, in memoirs that deal with a person's illness...

    you need to study the copyright laws and what is covered, what is not... you'll find it all here: www.copyright.gov

    not a problem, as long as you cite the sources...

    'yes, you can,' to the first question... and 'no, you don't have to,' to the second, and don't need permission unless you want to use their exact wording... but if it's a public statement, you probably don't need to ask, as long as you quote it exactly and cite the source properly...

    answered above... the choice is yours...
     
  3. izzywizzy

    izzywizzy New Member

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    Hi Arron and Mammamia, thanks for your replies - I forgot to mention that I'm in the UK, it seems that there are much stricter rules here regarding copyright - fair dealing here appears to cover non commercial research and private study, along with criticism, review and reporting of current events. Is that what I would be doing?

    could you let me know - do your replies relate to the UK copyright laws or USA?
     
  4. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

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    Their replies relate to the US, though the Berne Convention means that for the most part it is the same as in the UK. But you'd do well to consult domestic sources of copyright legislation, and case law.

    (I believe that the copyright law here is still dictated by the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, but unless you have some form of legal experience, deciphering it might be difficult)
     
  5. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Medical records come under HIPAA in the US, not copyright law. Under HIPAA, you can choose to reveal information from your own medical records, but not anyone else's without a specific release. I don't know whether there would be corresponding laws in the UK, or what they would be.
     
  6. arron89

    arron89 Banned

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    My reply is from NZ actually. But I'm pretty sure no matter where you are you don't need to obtain permission to reference journals, articles and documents for your own academic writing...if you do, there must be a whole lot of copyright infringement going on in the world right now...
     
  7. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ...no, since you are writing a personal account of your illness that is intended to be sold as a book, and are not studying, critiquing, reviewing or reporting...

    applies to both us and uk, as well as most [if not all] signatories to the berne convention...

    just go to your nearest book shop or library and take a look at all the similar books in the non-fiction section... you'll find what you're doing has been done and is being done all the time...

    so, go ahead and write your book... if you're lucky enough to interest a publisher in it, they'll let you know if anything along those lines needs changing, or permission obtained...
     
  8. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    Hi there,

    We all seem to agree that plagiarism is a "no, no." But copying is something that is part and parcel of the writing business, though permission should be sought. Or is it?

    Now what justifies the copying could either be the author's aknowledging the source, before which he should gain concent from the original person who wrote it, let alone the character being portrayed in the piece of work (be it a play or movie script).

    How can someone avoid controversy while still completing his work and allowing it to be produced if he were to rip off someone else's work or life? Taking into consideration that any twist in that person's life may result in defaming him/her.

    I hope that made sense, cos I'm a bit confused here :confused:
     
  9. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    If you're considering adding a real-life person to your work and then defame them, well, then you're on thin ice.
     
  10. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    True, Horus. But such a case actually took place in real life... like da!! lol The funny thing is, there are examples of authors who've done this and managed to get away with it and their works turn out a hit!!

    ....???
     
  11. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Are you talking about plagiarism, or defamation? They are two entirely different things.

    If you copy someone's creative work (the actual creative work, not the ideas - ideas are not copyrightable), in whole or in part, that is plagiarism, and is indefensible.
     
  12. HorusEye

    HorusEye Contributor Contributor

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    Give us a precise example of what you want to do?
     
  13. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    I'm not sure if I can mention examples here....?
     
  14. Kas

    Kas New Member

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    I apologise in advance if I'm derailing the thread, (I'm not really sure what the OP is asking) but. . . why are comedy writers apparently immune to this? It seems like at least half of any comedian's material is nothing but defamation of character these days. . .

    Take the South Park "Fish Sticks" episode. It was a lame episode, but I'm tired, so this is the best my brain can come up with atm. . .

    Jimmy comes up with a joke that goes like this:

    "Do you like fish sticks?"

    "Yeah. . ."

    "You like putting fish sticks in your mouth?"

    "Umm, yeah."

    "So, what are you, man? A gay fish?"

    Yep, stupid joke. Anyway, Kanye West was the only person in the world who couldn't understand the joke. Carlos Mencia claimed credit for the joke, because, according to the South Park writers, he steals all of his material and "just recylces it with a spanish accent". The character of Carlos confesses all of this to Kanye when Kanye kidnaps Carlos and threatens to kill him if he doesn't explain the joke (why everyone is calling him a gay fish). Kanye finally kills Carlos when he can't explain the joke. Ultimately, in the end, Kanye accepts his identity as a "gay fish" and goes off to live his new life, making bad music under da sea.

    So. . . They totally ripped Carlos Mencia to pieces, putting the worst possible words in his character's mouth: "I steal all of my material". As for Kanye, I'm not entirely sure what the point was (I don't even really know who this guy is, other than some rapper. . .). In any case, it wasn't flattering. Where is the line? Do comedy writers have some kind of special creative lisence?

    I am hopelessly confused by this. . . because just about every truly famous person out there has been utterly destroyed by comedians (among other people) at one time or another, and usually by using said people as characters in some crazy story. . .

    Just to be clear, SP said very directly that Carlos Mencia rips off other comedians. It wasn't just a general insult like "He's a douche". It was more of an accusation. Is it acceptable simply because the story is obviously fiction?

    I can uderstand how claiming specific events to be true without evidence could land a person in trouble.
     
  15. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    Kas, I think you kinda express the point that I'm trying to clarify here.

    The case that I was throwing at was Bryony Lavery's play "Frozen", where a serial killer kidnaps a small girl and so on. Then there's this American criminal psychologist, Agnetha who examines the criminal. Later in the play, a relationship evolves between the bad guy and Agnetha, who is originally portraying Dr Dorothy Lewis (the real character). Lavery used Lewis's memoir and employed it to her character. After Lewis heard about and seen the play, she felt appaulled and that her life had been stolen from her.

    The problem is, despite the controversy and all the fuss that went about Lavery's plagiarism, she got away with it - merely apologizing here and there, saying that it was sheer stupidity that she hadn't been carefull with her obvious ripping- her play was a hit in Broadway!
     
  16. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Again, that has nothing to do with plagiarism whatsoever.
     
  17. zaphod

    zaphod Member

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    Carlos Mencia and South Park are on the same network. Comedy Central isn't going to sue itself for defamation. That's how the show gets away with it.
     
  18. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    Lavery's case does have to do with plagiarism. She had used verbatim words from Malcolm Gladwell's article about Lewis, plus using material from her memoir.
     
  19. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Oh, that wasn't at all clear from what you posted.
     
  20. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    But from what I read, she "got away with it" because Lewis apparently did not decide to sue her, and Gladwell ended up basically giving her a free pass to the lifting of his text from his article. The issue was 2-fold: plagiarism for using exact wording from Lewis's & Gladwell's materials, and defamation for essentially using Lewis's character (but just giving her a different name in her play) but then adding events on to her life that never occurred--the relationship with the killer.

    I wouldn't want to take a chance of being accused of plagiarism and/or defamation. Unless you're going to do a retelling of the life of William Shakespeare or some other long-dead person, I'd avoid doing what this playwright did, and of course, I'd avoid lifting passages from someone else's material.
     
  21. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    cog is right, honeybun... you're confusing plagiarism with libel and defamation of character... two completely different things...

    yes, people get away with the latter all the time... and a few even get away with the former, now and then... but if you're thinking of trying it, DON'T... that is, unless you have tons of money and a reputation you can afford to lose...
     
  22. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    It's true, she got a way with it, one way or another!

    The thing is, no one can hardly escape from such a scheme without causing an uproar. Lavery did. The only persons to ever have reacted as far as I know are Lewis, and Gladwell, though the latter chose to avert from pointing the finger at Lavery regarding what she had done as a work of art and that his words had been used for a grander cause.
     
  23. Honeybun

    Honeybun Active Member

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    Mamma, I'm completely aware of the difference. Perhaps I have misrepresented the issue from the start *blushing*

    Certainly I wouldn't attempt to such a thing.
     
  24. InkDream

    InkDream Active Member

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    Plagiarism is a sticky subject and I"m not entirely sure that your definition is the same as that of the publishing or academic world. Everything I know about it I learned as a student at a university. If you give credit where it is due, acknowledge those that influenced you without ripping off their ideas, you're safe. A prime example of plagiarism would be fan fiction (aside from just copy and pasting someone's work) although you wouldn't get in trouble over it unless you tried/succeeded in publishing it.
     
  25. MarchOfMephisto

    MarchOfMephisto New Member

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    Would Angela Carter's Wise Children be a form of plagiarism? She frequently refers to Shakespeare's plays and some things are direct "copying" (didn't know how to phrase that) from them. For example, Tiffany's breakdown is exactly the same as Ophelia's breakdown in Hamlet.
    I always get afraid with the things I write because when I read them back to myself I notice things that are very similar to either real people (famous or otherwise) or books/films that I've recently read/seen.
     

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