Questions about plagiarism and copyright

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by blubttrfl, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. AHewlett

    AHewlett Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Moreton, Wirral, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Not emails, only conversation history on AIM

    P.S I'm sorry for all the reposts and double posts but my internet can't seem to handle this forum for some strange reason.
     
  2. AHewlett

    AHewlett Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Moreton, Wirral, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Not emails, only conversation history on AIM which I can print off at any time

    Plus I'm sorry for the double posts but my internet won't load the forum properly and so a double posts happens when I refresh
     
  3. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Loch na Seilg, Alba
    Here's one idea that's always open to you, no matter the law and no matter how poor you are: come up with a better story. It doesn't matter how good the old story was - look on it with fresh eyes and no doubt it can be even better.

    Legally, you can't copyright an idea. If you do have documentary proof that you started work on the story long before he did and that he took the idea from you directly, you've got something: but that's negated by the fact that business was conducted over a forum, with no legal documentation signed. I wouldn't recommend doing anything other than hiring a lawyer to send the afore-mentioned letter and seeing what transpires.
     
  4. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Loch na Seilg, Alba
    EDIT: Website technicalities
     
  5. AHewlett

    AHewlett Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Moreton, Wirral, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one with problems with the website! It wasn't really a forum, more a private server if you even want to call it that but I do have proof that I created the idea/story before him
     
  6. Gallowglass

    Gallowglass Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,615
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    Loch na Seilg, Alba
    Well then it's not completely hopeless. If and when you do take the advice of hiring a lawyer to write a letter, don't forget to inform them that you have proof. Ideally, this proof should show the progression of ideas over time, as well.
     
  7. AHewlett

    AHewlett Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Moreton, Wirral, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    It's gonna be the first thing I mention once I get all my documents together.
     
  8. James Huston

    James Huston New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Jacksonville, FL
    feel your pain!!!

    Man I feel your pain. I have my own magnum opus which I am incredibly secretive about.

    I have two cousins which are lawyers. One deals with Creative Copyrights and works for both YouTube and Google. I talked with her a lot concerning a a textbook I'm co-authoring with doctor, foundation, and several other teachers. The book is based primarily on my own work and studies so I wanted to protect myself. Ultimately the ideas and original concept were mine, but when you either work with or for someone depending on circumstances in the eyes of the law they are seen as having rights to the material in question. So that means that as soon as you agreed to co-author with this person he gained the right to the material. However, you also still have the right to the material as well. This is a good thing, because if he someone develops and publishes and book you are legally obligated to be part of the contract agreement with the publication company and receive fair compensation and profit from published book. On a purely unemotional but legal stance the co-author has done one major act which could seriously hurt his case in court. Without consulting you he obtained a third co-author. While it is true that he has rights to your material that does not give him the freedom to pass on those rights to any third party. The other co-author there for does not have any rights to the material (this is important to remember). It is imperative that you find out who this third party co-author is because down the line if you present him with legal evidence he could actually turn alley in the courtroom in your efforts to sue the other co-author.

    (breath)

    Obviously I enjoy the complexity of the law. It's about justice through cold logic. I will be blunt with you. You have a case which may or may not be built on unsubstantiated evidence. I would give you good odds in a trial, but the ONLY WAY you can hope to obtain all rights to the original concept material is to bring the original co-author to court. For that you would need a lawyer... save up some money and take comfort that the two people in question can't publish for quite some time.

    The only thing I would suggest right now, HIGHLY SUGGEST, is that you take all material you have on your story and combined with any printed out communication you had with the co-author. Make two copies and seal them in the most durable envelope at the post office you can find so that you can ship it to yourself. This is often sighted as myth, but even my cousin at Google told me that it was better than nothing. It's not a copyright, but shows proof of date if in the courtroom the question of "who thought of the idea first?" comes up.... and it will. Now you might not be able to write an entire book and copyright that before he does, but my second suggestion is that you write several short stories that show a clear connection to your ideas and original concept. Ideas can't be copy written but short stories can. Suddenly your ideas will be protected in a round-a-bout way :) ...you can even try to write a short story that somehow includes the entire synopsis of your larger story... it probably would sound very good because of how you would have to write the story, but you would end up with a fairy tale version of your entire story outlined with the intro "Once upon a time....".

    If you need any more pointers contact me and I'll help as best I can.
     
  9. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    Unfortunately, I think what it boils down to is you shared ideas with "A" but didn't even start writing a story based on those ideas. Therefore, you have nothing that is able to be copyrighted. Even if you write these short stories now, only the stories - not the ideas they're based on - can be copyrighted. Any good lawyer will tell you not to waste your time, as you don't even have anything to show plagiarism, much less copyright infringement.

    A book not started is nothing more than daydreaming. Can't protect those from anybody.
     
  10. lostinwebspace

    lostinwebspace Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2011
    Messages:
    466
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    Canada
    Can i get you to talk to a friend of mine? :)
     
  11. Trilby

    Trilby Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2,097
    Likes Received:
    73
    Location:
    NE England
    A few years ago, when I needed legal advice, I walked into a lawyer office in Glasgow and the first hour was free. During that hour I found out all I needed to know. Check your local law firms
    they may provide a similar service. If not there is always the Citizens Advice Bureau, they have lawyers and any amount of law books.

    Good luck
     
  12. psychotick

    psychotick Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    477
    Location:
    Rotorua, New Zealand
    Hi,

    Good thought Trilby. Here in NZ we have a free legal advice service you can access through the Law Society. They could at least give you the basics of your case and what to do. I'm sure you'll have something similar in the UK.

    Cheers.
     
  13. Peerie Pict

    Peerie Pict Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2009
    Messages:
    722
    Likes Received:
    29
    Location:
    Scotland
    I'm a lawyer and while I didn't specialise in intellectual property, I've had a quick look at the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. The crucial provision, IMO, is Section 3 (2):

    "Copyright does not subsist in a literary, dramatic or musical work unless and until it is recorded, in writing or otherwise; and references in this Part to the time at which such a work is made are to the time at which it is so recorded."

    As people have pointed out previously in this thread, the law does not extend copyright protection to ideas. I think Section 3(2) is the basis for this.

    Legal issues aside, I think the chances of two people publishing a recognisably similar book from a single idea is so remote as to render this whole topic a moot point. I can barely stick to my own story ideas so the prospect of someone faithfully replicating someone else's idea (with a co-author) into novel form is highly unlikely.
     
  14. thewordsmith

    thewordsmith Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2009
    Messages:
    868
    Likes Received:
    125
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    The most important issue here is if you have copies of communications with this person - obviously prior to his beginning his new partnership - showing the path of your communications with him regarding this story and, most importantly, anything revealing parts of the story. Ordinarily, if you can prove he stole your work - can show he had access to your ideas prior to his writing his story - that is generally sufficient to show theft of intellectual property ... and that's plagiarism.

    Contact the nearest legal aid office and talk to them. They may be interested in handling it for the press it could receive. If not, they may take it pro bono anyway or, at least, at reduced rates. Good luck in this. And nail that illegitimate offspring of a pig to the wall!
     
  15. AHewlett

    AHewlett Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Moreton, Wirral, United Kingdom, United Kingdom
    Thanks to everyone who replied and I would have replied sooner but it's a pain trying to get onto this site with it loading so slow for me. Anyway! I'm going to print off every document, including screenshots of the dates, etc. and I'll be sending them to me.

    I haven't talked to him since putting up this post so I haven't been able to get anymore information off him but I'm going to get a cease and desist letter done to send to him (if I can) and see where that takes me. In the mean time, I'm trying to come up with a short story from the idea and I'm going to try and get that published before him if possible.

    Thanks to everyone who helped me and gave advice. If I need anymore, I'll post as soon as possible but I hope that I don't. Thanks!

    EDIT - I found out from someone from the sever that the co-author has stopped writing my story but won't give it to me in writing so I'm trying to get that. If that's the case, I'll be happy but at the moment, I'm still keeping my guard up.
     
  16. TheWritingWriter

    TheWritingWriter New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    A little to the left
    I'm sorry that this happened. Working as co-authors will have its trials. Those trials will usually depend on the people you are co-authoring with. There are those grey lines and corners to cut, and this can only be avoided by, as Steerpike said, a written contract.
     
  17. sprirj

    sprirj Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    193
    Legally copyright your main characters, keep a back up of all your drafts. Send each a letter to him and his co writer, telling them that you believe that they are breaking copyright and if they ever look to make profit from your work you will persue the matter legally.

    Then go write the story you want to write.

    If they ever do get published, you may have enough to at least get compensation if they are successful. But you have learnt a lesson. BE CAREFUL.

    A different tactic - There is a saying ' keep you friends close, enemies closer'
    Become friends, keep tabs, as soon as you know they are sending it too publishers, send a letter to a publisher warning them you will take legal action if they publish a story believed to be stolen from yourself (they will open up standard letters before manuscripts).
     
  18. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    I would be very very VERY careful about doing that. That could come very close to libel, especially if you have no idea whether or not what they submitted compares to your idea. Before you send any more letters to anyone, you better get yourself a lawyer, before you end up on the wrong end of the stick.
     
  19. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    I would be very very VERY careful about doing that. That could come very close to libel, especially if you have no idea whether or not what they submitted compares to your idea. Before you send any more letters to anyone, you better get yourself a lawyer, before you end up on the wrong end of the stick.
     
  20. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    i have to ditto that [dittoed ;) ] post by shadowwalker, spirj!... it's not good advice... acting on it could be disastrous for the already-wronged op...
     
  21. shadowwalker

    shadowwalker Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    3,258
    Likes Received:
    847
    Just a quick afterthought - it probably won't do you any good in the eyes of that publisher, either. You may just burn bridges you really don't want to.
     
  22. AmsterdamAssassin

    AmsterdamAssassin Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2011
    Messages:
    343
    Likes Received:
    24
    Location:
    Amsterdam, The Netherlands
    Don't ask for him to stop writing your story. Forget him. Write your story, and record every aspect of writing it. Write a synopsis, save it. I write version 1.1, then copy it and call it 1.2 and edit that version. Which means that I can prove that I've written 1.1 in 2008, 1.2 in 2009, 1.3 in 2010, etcetera. Keep all your notes and deleted scenes, they're like the sketches a painter makes before he starts painting. If there's ever a discussion about who authored the work, the preliminary sketches prove who's the originator.

    However an idea is not copyrighted...
     
  23. Dresden260

    Dresden260 Corrupt Diplomat

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Sitting by a Fountain, Watching the world go by.
    I am currently writing a novel but i have a question. If one of my characters brings up the story of Gandalf and the Hobbits and their adventures is that copyright infringement? Its in a conversation and two main characters are proving points with stories. Do I need Permission to use them in my Novel?
     
  24. Raki

    Raki New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    6
    If they are just discussing it? I don't think so, though there are exceptions depending how specific the discussion may get. It probably wouldn't hurt you to read up on it: http://www.copyright.gov and Fair Use. If it's just two characters expressing their views of the LotR movies or books, I don't think you have a problem unless you start quoting passages from the books/movies.
     
  25. Jetshroom

    Jetshroom Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    8
    Location:
    Australia
    There are exceptions under fair use for critique or review and for satire or comedic effect. With just a few lines, you should be able to get away with it. A precedent was set by a court in America that ruled an item was pop-culture and so couldn't really have a conflict of copyright on such a small scale. But, if you get published, your publisher will probably confirm that with a copyright lawyer.
     
    Rad Scribbler likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice