Any one can give me suggestion on my dissertation? Grammar, structure or any mistake

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by linchpin, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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  2. mth0csc

    mth0csc New Member

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  3. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Linchpin, it increasingly seems as if your original request should not have been "Can anyone give me suggestions on my dissertation?" but "Please debate whether my translation is good, with me taking the affirmative."

    When you ask for advice, that's asking for a favor. It's not customary to debate and reject that advice quite this vehemently. If you feel that you know the style of native speakers better than the native speakers do, why did you ask?
     
  4. Raki

    Raki New Member

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    Did you read my explanations on it? I gave you the rule and the exceptions to it (abstract, collective, and uncountable nouns ... there are also phrasal occurrences that work as exceptions to this rule). That should be enough information for you to research the rule and its exceptions yourself from reliable sources. "Apples are a ... crop" uses a collective noun (think group). "The dogs are a family" also uses a collective noun. The third example I couldn't find in their article after a few healthy searches (the writer doesn't even use the word "bridge" at all actually), but it is grammatically incorrect. It should be "bridges" ("The dogs are bridges for the disabled to the outside world."). Still, the closest sentence I could find to the one you quoted was the headline, "Dogs Are Trained to Help Lead Disabled Back Into the World." And though this one is, headlines are not required to be grammatically correct. The particular sentence you list would be much better revised, too, to something like, "Dogs bridge the gap to the outside world for the disabled." I may also argue that "The dogs are a bridge" doesn't make sense. However, used metaphorically, "bridge" ceases to be the subject-complement and becomes the object of the sentence, which is why the verb here, "are," doesn't work. Simply put, dogs cannot be a bridge. They can work as a bridge, form a bridge, build a bridge, bridge a gap, and so on, but they cannot be a bridge.

    The biggest newspapers in the world make many mistakes. From being someone who worked in the press for several years, I know it happens. They try to make it not happen, but it is a fast-paced business and most things are rushed and things slip past the editors. It happens, but something else to realize ... newspapers are not the go-to guide for formal essays or for grammar. Newspapers use different writing styles than formal essays, and many of the rules are different. This rule, however, is not one of them.

    After reading over your responses to my notes, I take it that you do not want to make any changes in content to this essay, but only construct a solid translation of it? If this is not the case, I may ask that you take a look at a formal argumentative essay I wrote several months ago to see the structure concepts I talked about in the previous post (The Media Manipulation). My essay isn't without flaws, but overall, it's fairly solid and may help you see what I'm talking about. If you're not after improving the content, but only the sentence structure, grammar, and so on (the translation), I'll just wish you the best of luck. :)
     
  5. mth0csc

    mth0csc New Member

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    It took me a while to figure out that it was on page 2 of the link.

    Excellent point.
     
  6. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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    Hi Raki,

    I respect your pionts on my essay, and I appreciate your much more serious attitude toward my article and the writing skills. But I think you might have misunderstood me by other guys' posts. I am not here seeking a confirmation for my translation job but to know how people think of it.

    Seriously, I accept your points on writings. But my problem is the original words is actually a good one published and cited by many newspapwers. After I rewrite it in English, there's so many problems in the content, so I need to figure out why is that. If the orginal article is o.k, and your points also right, then it must be my translation that misguided you.

    As far as I know, both languages share a same stand on essays that things need to be put together that go together. If you have time, please review my reply to your post to check whether my explanation is acceptable on your stand.

    Your suggestions will be much helpful for me to rewrite it.
    Sincerly

    Linchpin
     
  7. Raki

    Raki New Member

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    lol I didn't notice that. Wish those sites would just let it run long. I always miss the page buttons. Still, I don't change my stance about the sentence though. :)

    I'm still not sure I fully understand what you are seeking. My earlier critique was aimed at improving the piece as a whole, not as a translation. I'm afraid I'll be unable to offer much advice for the translation because I will be unable to read or understand the original article to know how its English counterpart should look and sound. I can offer advice on how to properly phrase and structure your sentences, and some grammatical no-no's to avoid, but in the end, I'll be unable to tell if all content from the original text was transferred over and is as it should be.

    I do find it interesting that you're now referring to it as an article, which provides a bit of light on the subject because it is structured somewhat like a newspaper or magazine article (short, one-to-three sentence paragraphs with occasional exceptions). When I read dissertation, I thought formal (academic) essay, which usually compile quite a lot of information per paragraph (not to mention dozens of pages). It is not rare to see a formal essay with paragraphs five-to-fifteen sentences long.

    I'll take another look at it when I can. It may not be for a few days, just got word back from the editor on my book and seems I'll be quite busy these next several weeks with rewrites.
     
  8. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    those examples of 'mistakes' are not mistakes at all, linchpin...

    the first two, as noted by others are correct because the objects of the sentences are collective nouns [crop/family]... thus the plurals 'apples are/dogs are' are correct...

    the last is also correct in that 'dogs' = a group [an animal species], so 'a bridge' is the proper form for the object... just as 'humans are a species' or 'we are a family' would be proper grammar...

    if you'd take time to study the rules of english grammar in this area instead of wasting time trying in vain to prove that you're right with irrelevant examples, you'd understand why you're so wrong...
     
  9. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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    O.k. Here is my last statement about this issue, no more explanations: Computers are a tool, -

    http://www.nytimes.com/1983/01/09/education/the-computer-develops-some-glitches.html?scp=11&sq=%22are+a+tool%22&st=nyt

    http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/the-intel-ministry-of-education/?scp=17&sq=%22are+a+tool%22&st=nyt

    Anyway, I'd like to hear more critiques from you about the rest part.
     
  10. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    in the first instance, you are misquoting completely... see the actual quote from the article above...

    in the second, while perhaps not exactly following the rules of number accord, as a styling issue, that wording is perfectly acceptable, since 'computers' as an aggragate can be considered 'a tool'... and i'm speaking as an editor who would either let that slide, or 'correct' it...

    you're still trying to prove you were right, when you weren't, linchpin... and you can't possibly do so, since there was no ambiguity in the 'wrongness' of your skyscrapers sentence...
     
  11. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    as for 'the rest part' [flawed grammar there, too], other errors can be found throughout the piece, sorry to say...

    so, if this work is a typical example of your translation skills, i'd suggest you set about improving them, before submitting your work to publishers, since this shows your writing to not be up to marketable minimums...
     
  12. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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  13. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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    As a saying goes, we're not the saint, and we will make mistakes. I am pricking up my ears to those, among them especially the red PART.


    Oh, you editor, you are "styling-skipping" again. For the "translation skills", were you referring to the "writing skills"? - Cause I cannot see any words of the orginal language from my post. Where did you get the idea of "translation skills", I doubt? Improving whom? the "translation skills"? I don't see any logics between them and the publishers. I never said I will have it published. I have to say there's a suspicious cloud over your English logics.

    Moreover, looking forward to your "whole piece" errors.
     
  14. Raki

    Raki New Member

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    I would say that the rest of us don't post to this thread to be critiqued by you, linchpin. We've posted here, the majority of us, to help you out with your problem and question. I don't know if we've been much help, as we all got sidetracked on one little sentence, one little rule, but even if we haven't been, that's a fact to keep to yourself ... Basically, it's best to just say thankya and walk away. When you start critiquing us--really rather attacking us than critiquing--I think that's a cause to lose all favors, all help. That's not saying you cannot debate us about something like the number rule, but there is no reason to get mean about it. We've told you it is wrong, I've personally explained the rule and why it is wrong, and we've shown you why. Still, you insist it is correct. That is perfectly fine. Just leave it as is in your translation and let it go. It's technically and grammatically incorrect, and it will continue to be such as long as you bring it up here, but if you want to use it, nothing is stopping you. Please do not attack others because they are trying to inform you. Thicken your skin ... receive the criticism, take a deep breath, and continue on ... use the information or not, it's your choice, but don't snap at those who provide their opinions and thoughts when you have asked for such.
     
  15. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    ...i did... for some reason the excerpt didn't come out in my post... here it is:

    ...that is the excerpt i was referring to...

    ...the sort of totally unacceptable rude behavior and personal attacks you are indulging in are not tolerated here and will certainly not get you any more help with your work from me... can even get you banned from the site, if you keep it up...

    ...i am shocked that you would be so ungrateful to those here who have been attempting to assist you... i suggest you take that log-sized chip you've got on your shoulder elsewhere... this is a peaceful place full of nice, kind, caring folks who help each other... not your sort of place at all, it would seem...
     
  16. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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    I respect people like you that can talk about sth. in a friendly, peaceful way, making academic environment for every one. But those people, who claimed themselves experts, despised people who brought out questions as heathens, yet they themselves do not speak decent English. Look at their words - they provoked a shabby, mean talking way, yet the questioners either should be silent, or nod! - Because you are questioners! You are here begging for answers! I don't know where mammamaia comes from, but I will never, ever lived in a feudalism society.

    I can tolerate several rude replies in my posts, but if you keep takling that way, I will fight back. And if I was banned for this, then I don't see any reasons for me sticking around here.

    Anyway, Raki, you are different from them. I can see you are a well-educated man. You deserve anyone's respect from anywhere

    Sincerly Linchpin
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm confused by the above. A translation job is not complete when all words in Language X are converted to words in Language Y. If it were that easy, then there would be no need for non-computer translators. The translator must also make the grammar correct, and, for it to be a good and readable translation, the translated result should sound as if a native speaker wrote it.

    Some specific issues with the piece:

    > Skyscrapers, a building backed up by powerful economic forces,

    The problem above has been amply discussed.

    > are viewed by people and politicians mostly

    Politicians are people. I see what you mean, but in English this doesn't quite work for me; maybe "populations and politicians" or "citizens and politicians".

    "mostly" is a little too informal for the tone of the rest of the piece; I'd suggest "primarily"

    > as the symbol of

    "a symbol", not "the symbol", unless you're arguing that people see skyscrapers as the one and only symbol of progress/economic boom.

    > social progress and economic boom, a notion some economists turn
    > up their noses at.

    Ending the sentence with "turn up their noses at" is awkward and not the way that a native speaker would put it. You could break it out to another sentence, "...boom. Some economists turn up their noses at this notion." but even that is awkward. I'd just simplify it to, "Some economists reject this notion."

    > The tallest buildings spring up usually as the
    > herald for an economic downturn at hand, typically when setting a
    > new record, the economists argue.

    Awkward again. "Herald" and "at hand" are somewhat redundant with one another. You're not clear about what kind of new record. "spring up" feels a little too dramatic to fit the mood of the piece. "usually" would be more natural before rather than after the verb.. I'd rewrite it as:

    The tallest buildings usually come into being when new records are being set for economic growth. But some economists argue that their creation also serves as the herald of an economic downturn.

    (I realize that you may mean new records for economic _downturn_. But the fact that I can't tell which one you mean indicates a problem.)

    > “The bad times come once the edifices are finished”(1), judged by

    "judged by" is not a synonym for "said" or "wrote". You could say "...as judged by...", but that would still be awkward when used with a direct quote. I'd just go with either "said" or "wrote".

    > Andrew Lawrence, a security analyzer at Deutsche Bank(2), in
    > 1999. On Feb. 15, 2006,

    It's not clear how the 1999 quote and the 2006 quote fit together. I think that the message is that the index was created in 1999, and in 2006 someone used it to make an interesting prediction, but that's not clear.

    It's also not clear why we should care about all the details of the Beijing meeting, its date, its location, and so on. Also, the only link to the "Skyscraper Index" is your assertion - it's not even in the quote. And why is Lawrence "Andrew Lawrence" while Llewellyn is "Mr. Llewellyn"? And "security analyzer" probably means "securities analyst".

    If you were _writing_ this piece, not just translating it, I'd suggest:

    "The bad times come once the edifices are finished," said Andrew Lawrence, a securities analyst at Deutche Bank, in his 1999 paper, "Title of Paper". In this work, Lawrence introduced the "Skyscraper Index", a tool for analyzing the economy using statistics about skyscraper construction.

    In 2006, Firstname Llewellyn, chief economist for Leman Brothers, used the Skyscraper Index to predict a threatening recession. A Beijing paper quotes Llewelleyn as saying, "If there would be any global depression in the near term, it mostly could be in 2007 or 2008."

    Llewellyn's predicted recession did come to be; the consequences of that event included the dissolution of his own employer, the centuries-old Lehman corporation.


    (Also, if you were writing the paper I'd suggest finding a better source for the quote, because the translation from German(?) to Chinese to English has apparently done bad things to it - the tense makes no sense.)

    If you _must_ stick to the information in the original piece, the best I can see to do with these paragraphs is:

    "The bad times come once the edifices are finished", said Andrew Lawrence, a securities analyst at Deutche Bank, in 1999.

    In 2006, Mr. Llewellyn, chief economist for Lehman Brothers, was quoted as stating, “If there would be any global depression in the near term, it mostly could be in 2007 or 2008”(3). His basis for this prediction was the "Skyscraper Index".

    Llewellyn's predicted recession did come to be; the consequences of that event included the dissolution of his own employer, the centuries-old Lehman corporation.


    > In terms of the economy, here
    > come

    "here come" is very informal and a bit slangy; it doesn't fit with the mood of the piece.

    > our questions: Is the high-rise a glory or curse? And
    > whether

    As others have stated, the "and whether" construction doesn't work the way you've set it up; it's grammatically incorrect. And "glory" and "curse" don't fit together in English.

    > the buildings do have a close relationship with the
    > economic disaster?

    You're talking about economic disasters in general, so the "the" shouldn't be here.

    A possible rewrite could be:

    In terms of the economy, this essay attempts to address two questions. First, is the high-rise a blessing or a curse? Second, do these buildings have a close relationship with economic disaster?

    > In 1999, Andrew Lawrence’s study proved there’s connections

    "there's connections" is not correct. "proved" is a bit strong; does science even accept the concept of absolute proof? Also, you haven't introduced the study yet in the text, ony in the footnotes. (Yes, you quoted it, but you didn't say in the _text_ where the quote comes from), so I would change this to:

    In 1999, a study by Andrew Lawrence demonstrated that there are connections...

    > between skyscrapers and recession, which the researcher described
    > as the “Skyscraper Index”(4). In fact, every record-breaking
    > structure normally rises along with the economic downturn.

    "an" economic downturn.

    > From
    > early-20th-century, there’s four rounds of global
    > skyscraper-building spree, coming with them the depression or
    > financial turmoil each time.(5)

    "early-20th-century" is not a normal way of forming the phrase in English. "There's" is the wrong tense. "spree" doesn't work in this construction, "coming with them" is not normally used in this way, "the depression" should be "a depression". So, a possible rewrite:

    From the early twentieth century, there have been four rounds of global skyscraper contruction. Depression or other financial turmooil has accompanied each one.

    > In the 1920’, America’s economy turned up,

    "turned up" is not how a native speaker would normally put it.

    > with an unprecedented
    > roaring stock market back

    "roaring (noun) back" is again not a valid phrase.

    > and a surge in building on

    "building on" is not a usual phrase.

    > residential
    > and commercial properties.

    Rewrite:

    In the 1920s, America's economy was thriving, with unprecedented growth in the stock market and a surge in residential and commercial construction.

    I'm stopping here; the rest of the piece needs similar changes, but unless and until I know whether you'll take this in or reject every point out of hand, I'm not willing to put in any more time.

    ChickenFreak
     
  18. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    A useful observation, because Chinese grammar doesn't have the concept of agreement for number. so number disagreement is a common type of error Chinese speakers make in English.
     
  19. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    If you are no expert on grammar, your instincts are still good. They are the right reasons.
    Actually, I think the dogs case has the same reason as the skyscraper example. One dog wouldn't be a bridge, but the dogs taken as a group are. Just as one skyscraper wouldn't be a great bubble indicator, but a bunch (what is the collective noun for skyscrapers?) of them would be. On the other hand, one skyscraper would be a building, more than one wouldn't be a building, they would be buildings.
     
  20. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    What is your native language? It's rules for number agreement must be quite different to those of English (which is quite possible; it's true of lots of languages). Professional translation usually requires that the translator be a native speaker of the destination language, not the original language. Your English is good -- it's easy to understand -- but it's not that of a native English speaker. The mistakes you make are not the ones that a native speaker would be likely to make.
     
  21. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    Mamma's English was perfectly correct on both occasions (as usual). I'm afraid that your English, whilst perfectly clear, is not as good as you think it is and nowhere near good enough to correct a native English speaker.
     
  22. linchpin

    linchpin New Member

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    Thanks for comments. I want to hear her own opinions whether they are right.
     
  23. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    You have already heard and (wrongly) condemned her opinions.
     
  24. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    too sadly true, dig!... thanks for the support, but this poster seems to only want total capitulation to his wrongful conclusions and poor grammar... so i have no more to say to him, as it will fall on deaf ears, anyway...

    love and hugs, maia
     

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