Science and magic... together?

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by tristan.n, Oct 31, 2011.

  1. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    Ok, I guess its a semantics argument. I was working under the definition of "science" that the OP made where the "technology" that exists that is explainable by science (AI and space travel fit that bill IMO). And magic is "technology" that isn't explained by science. Using that definition, Star Wars fits.

    I agree that your definition works and that it's probably the more popular definition. But the OPs original question of can you have two different elements of a story... one where science explains why said thing exists and another where science can't explain why it exists. The answer to that question is YES you can get away with doing that.
     
  2. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I completely agree with that. In fact, if you look at my initial reply to her, I actually told her to fuse the two story ideas together for a science vs magic novel.

    However, we were talking about Star Wars and not her question. So that is all I was talking about. I wasn't saying it isn't possible to fuse science fiction and fantasy together. I was just saying the original Star Wars trilogy is a fantasy. Because you asked.

    Maybe this will explain better than I:

    "Long ago in a magical kingdom, a young farmboy was raised by his aunt and uncle, not knowing he had a destiny of greatness. He is soon taken under the wing of an old wizard who teaches him to become a gallant knight and to understand his own magical powers. Along the way, he rescues a princess, is almost eaten by a monster, is visited by ghosts, and saves the kingdom from a wicked sorcerer.

    Obviously this is the story of the original Star Wars trilogy stripped down to its most basic elements. But from this synopsis we can see that no major plot points hang on science of any kind. In fact, the most iconic weapon in all of Star Wars is not a technological device of any kind, but instead that weapon that screams fantasy: a sword."


    Edit: Almost every super hero comic book is a good example of science fiction and fantasy mingled together.
     
  3. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    Eh... but then by that definition do Sci-fi series have plot points that hang on science? Something like Star Trek for example, the characteristics that make it a Sci-Fi in my mind would be all of the "science" behind space travel/exploration. If you take that away you could compare Star Trek to a series where a crew sails earth's seas, coming across different civilizations.

    I'm not really making an argument here but just curious what makes Star Trek a sci-fi series in your mind.
     
  4. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I am no expert on Star Trek, that wasn't my thing growing up. I was a Star Wars kid.

    But Star Trek doesn't have "magic" in it. Everything is centered around science and technology. I am pretty sure there is even some time travel at one point. Which is science fiction as well.

    Edit: To answer your question: Yes, science fiction series do have plot points that hang on science. That is what makes them science fiction. And all the science behind space travel and exploration you were talking about, is part of why it is science fiction.

    And yes, you could take some things away and then compare it to another story. But that wouldn't be Star Trek anymore now would it?
     
  5. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Also, that example I showed you only works with Star Wars because it is a fantasy. Doing the same with Star Trek doesn't work, since it is science fiction. You would just be changing the story altogether into something different. That excerpt was just to articulate how Star Wars is a fantasy and was not intended to put towards anything else. I am sorry if that confused you.
     
  6. KateEnglund

    KateEnglund New Member

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    the first thing I thought when i read the 'magic' bit was it sounds kind of like the tv serise Heroes, But it sounds like a good idea I guess science and magic could go together I mean why not? Go for it
     
  7. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    Well, I wasn't trying to say that because you could strip it of what makes it "Star Trek" and it's completely different... that means it's not science fiction. I was trying to show that in my opinion a major factor that makes Star Trek a sci-fi series is the science behind space travel, and laser guns and all of the other futuristic stuff they do on the show. And they do the same thing on Star Wars too.
     
  8. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Yeah, but Star Trek isn't centered around wizards with swords. It is centered around a crew on a space ship searching the galaxy and all the science involved with it.

    Like I said, space ships and lasers are fixtures of fantasy and science fiction. They for obvious reasons, just happen to be used primarily in science fiction. Which causes easy confusion. But with that said, it is extremely easy to cross pollinate the two genres together and it happens all the time. I just think Star Trek is a clear cut science fiction series. As well as the original Star Wars trilogy being a clear cut fantasy.

    But, when it all comes down to it, I guess it doesn't even really matter. I wouldn't like either one more or less because of what genre it is.
     
  9. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    Ok, but you can see where I said earlier that Star Wars had elements of magic and science in it. Because the things that make Star Trek a sci-fi series happen to be present in Star Wars. A movie can have elements of two things. Just like how you could call The Matrix science fiction and action as well.
     
  10. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    If Star Wars had delved into the sciences of space travel and robotics etc. Than that would be a different story. As it were, they were just there, being used with almost no explanations as part of the story. Whereas the Jedi's are there, being delved into greatly, with many explanations and plot points surrounding them. There is no plot points surrounding the science behind space travel and robots. To be science fiction, science has to be a big part of the story. Just having space travel doesn't mean the science behind it is being shown. It is like I said, just there part of the story. It is a fantasy set in a technological past.

    Star Trek, however, has many plot points surrounding the different sciences of space travel and exploration. That is what the show is all about.

    Also, for something to be science fiction, it has to have some sort of believability of it eventually being possible. Jedi's have none of that. When you delve into the realm of something not being possible, ever. Than it is safe to say it is a fantasy.

    But, I have already said that I agree with you that you can mix the two genres. But, just because Star Wars has space ships doesn't mean the genres have been mixed. That is all I am trying to say.
     
  11. Keven

    Keven New Member

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    Reader,

    I 100% agree with Jhunter. Star Wars at its core is Fantasy as at no point do the characters try to explain the SCIENCE behind what they do, how they do it, etc. Star Trek through out all the series and movies always tried to explain: how they did it, could do it, etc. Now yes they don't tell you how a Photon Torpedo works, but this is just basic writing knowledge; not over flow the read/watcher with EXPLANATIONS.

    In fact, you can find more credible people and companies talking about the science of Star Trek then Star Wars. Most scientist also belive that out of the two Star Wars and Star Trek they say it is more logical we could go down a Star Trek path in years to come.

    NASA - The Science of Star Trek
    National Geographic - The Science of Star Trek
    ABC News - Star Trek Science
    Reality Check: The Science of 'Star Trek'

    v/Respectfully,
    Keven
     
  12. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    I'm not making the argument that it's 100% Science Fiction, just that it has elements of science fiction.

    You made the point (that I agree with) that most superhero movies are a combination of Sci-Fi and fantasy. Yet none of us here would ever believe X-men could happen in our lifetime.
     
  13. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    There goes my dreams of having an X-Wing. :(
     
  14. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    The "elements of science fiction," you keep pointing out, are not elements of science fiction. That is what I have been trying to tell you this whole time. What makes something science fiction is science. There is no science in Star Wars. Space ships and robots are irrelevant in deciding if something is science fiction or fantasy. Unless, of course, the story is about the science behind them (Star Trek).

    As far as X-Men, that is a different story. It is a blending of the two genres. It isn't trying to be just science fiction. So it doesn't have to be believable. We all know it is part fantasy.

    I can only say this so many times. You can choose to believe what you want for here on out. I am, no offense, done with this topic. All my points have already been said. ;)
     
  15. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    Yeah. I mean, I can respect your opinion and I can certainly respect that probably the majority of the population will call Star Wars a fantasy movie. However, I just can't get past when you make arguments like "for something to be science fiction it has to be somewhat believable that it could eventually happen"... and then in the next post claim that X-men is different because it's a blending of genres and it's not trying to be just sci-fi so it doesn't have to be believable. And it's like... well why can't we call Star Wars a fantasy movie with sci-fi aspects and use the reasoning you used for X-men?
     
  16. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    Because in X-Men, there is SCIENCE. That is how you can use that reasoning for it. It actually IS part of both genres.

    Star Wars is NOT.

    Space ships and robots DO NOT make something science fiction.

    And honestly, this isn't my opinion. This is fact. I wasn't pulling all these points out of thin air. I have been trying to help you understand this the entire time we have been talking. I don't know how to better explain this. So I give up, haha. ;)
     
  17. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    We went down the route of "Spaceships and robots do not make something science fiction" (which is something I disagree with currently). I argued that if you took those elements out of Star Trek you basically have something akin to a Pirates of The Caribbean. And your argument to that was that in Star Trek they try to explain the science behind space ships and robots. Which I guess they do...I wasn't a big fan of the series personally but I imagine at some point they touch on it. But I disagree that this has to happen for the story to be considered atleast in part science fiction.

    However, now we're back to X-men... and I'm pretty sure no where in the movie did they explain from a scientific point of view how they mutated or the science behind what was going on. Maybe they did in the comic books (comics are usually famous for things like that), but the movies focused more on the discrimination aspect.

    I'm not really thrilled that you are declaring this is all facts and ending the argument there. What we have is definitely an argument of semantics. We both have different definitions of what science fiction is. I don't really think mine is that outlandish. And at the very least you DO have to admit that if we are to draw a line in the sand between fantasy and science fiction like that... there is a blurry area where some things cross over. And the core target audience for both usually ends up being the same. So we're basically talking about the difference between Rap and Hip-Hop here.
     
  18. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I was talking about the X-Men comic book from the start. I even said "super hero comics" if you want go back and look. And besides that, even if I was talking about just the movie, there is an entire opening narration by Professor Xavier explaining the science of mutation and how it came about. It even had colored pictures to go along with it. So, friend, you are wrong there.

    "Science Fiction: a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot."

    Where in Star Wars is there any plot that fits this definition?

    There is a reason it is called science fiction and not "robot fiction" or "space ship fiction." It is called science fiction because it has SCIENCE.

    And I am sorry, but your opinion cant change the definition of something.

    None of this has ever been my opinion. Whether you like it or not, it is fact.

    You can also disagree all you want, but that wont change the definition of science fiction.
     
  19. Allan Paas

    Allan Paas New Member

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    If it has "cool" technology and stuff that is more or less explainable by science in it it is considered as science fiction. If it has aspects that cannot be completely explained by science, including people with powers, abilities (where do you get the energy to do all that awesome stuff?) it is considered fantasy. If it has both in it it's considered as science fiction and fantasy. And then which one has it more, science or fantasy?
    More about how everything works is discovered every day. The line between science and magic is fading, slowly. What was considered as cool fantasy stuff, might one day be considered as utter crap because then we know it is absolutely impossible.
    Star Wars is much more fantasy now than it was when it first started production.
    X-men is partly fantasy since some of the mutants seem do to what would require huge amounts of energy and even matter, but is not explained where it all comes from.
    Both are part science fiction, part fantasy.
     
  20. agentkirb

    agentkirb New Member

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    I take back my point about X-men then because I assume in the comics there is a lot of explanation of what's going on with mutations and all of that.

    It's definitely a semantics argument though. In your definition Star Trek is science fiction because when they explain the science behind space travel, AI, and robotics and all of that, but in Star Wars even though they use the same technology and its a major part of the story... but it's more or less assumed so it's fantasy and not a fantasy/sci-fi hybrid. We just disagree on that issue and that's fine.

    Also, not to get technical but isn't one of the plots in the second prequel (The Clone Wars) about... cloning? That's a plot driven by science... is it not?
     
  21. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    That is exactly why Star Wars is not science fiction. Nowhere in the movies do they explain the science of anything. Nowhere in the movies is there any plot that has to do with science.

    X-Men is both genres because it has science to explain mutations; but it is set in a world that is not believable and has no chance of ever being real. So it is part fantasy. Not to mention some characters in the comic use magic instead of mutations.
     
  22. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I have already told you in a previous post that the prequel trilogy has science fiction elements in it. But, we have been talking about the original trilogy this entire time.

    Also, you are not disagreeing with me. You are disagreeing with the definition of science fiction. I just want to make that clear since you seem to think this is all my opinion.

    Are you not reading what I am saying? I told you even with the comics aside the movie explains the science of mutation and how it came about.

    One last time; Star Trek is science fiction because the entire show is about the science of space travel and exploration.
     
  23. Keven

    Keven New Member

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    It doesn't matter what you disagree with. This is a definition or standard known to many publishers, editors, writers, and readers of Science Fiction. There is a difference between FACT and OPINION and in this case you are trying to use YOUR OPINION to justify what you feel is a fact (your opinion). Here is what Philip Athans has to say when it comes to defining Science Fiction (this is the basic definition you would find in a How to Guide to Science Fiction):

    It could be that if you ask a hundred different people you'd get a hundred different answers, but in basic terms, fantasy is fiction that depends on magical or supernatural elements not specifically meant to scare you-if it scares you, at least as its primary goal, it's horror. If the magical elements are replaced with imagined technologies, it's science fiction.
    ~~Philip Athans | The Guide to Writing Fantasy and Science Fiction | Page 1

    Definition: Fantasy is about the fantastic that doesn't rely on science for explanation
    ~~ Darin Park | The Complete Guide to Writing Fantasy: Volume One | Page 7

    There are plenty of books and authors who would define these as such. Now if a book has a dragon in it does it make it fantasy? This in itself depends on how the writers create the dragon and where it lives (example if Star Trek came across a planet with Dragons or Dragon like creatures, it still would be Science Fiction). If I write a novel that takes place in a mild technological world that uses magic my story at its heart is Fantasy.

    My point is you can't argue your opinion with what is believed as a fact.

    Actually you are incorrect. If you removed the Technology from Star Trek you would not have akin to Pirates of The Caribbean. You would have a half clustered screenplay that never would have made it production. Technology is not just something as simple as a ship, iPod, computer, etc. It can refer to some of the most simple inventions that electricity has nothing to do with. If you did it correctly you could easily create a novel set in medieval times that could be considered Science Fiction. Another example is if the "force" was in Star Trek and it was the main focus then yes Star Trek would be Fantasy even if it briefly explained technology. Now if we removed the "Force" from Star Wars you would have a Science Fiction tail.

    Yes they did do it in the movies, but just because it focused on the discrimination aspect doesn't completely make it Science Fiction of Fantasy. In fact I would call it Science Fantasy.

    No, you are trying to argue something that is NOT widely believed. The many outweigh the few!
     
  24. RusticOnion

    RusticOnion New Member

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    Jhunter, you do realise that there are over 100 definitions for S.F, using one as an all emcompassing definition isn't going to prove anything. This is all your opinion.

    Arguing that S.F texts aren't S.F is like arguing the difference between a religion and a cult.

    So far the smartest/safest defintion of S.F IMO is: "Science fiction is anything published as science fiction." Isaac Asimov. 1975

    Also, S.F does not need to be scientifically plausible, we know this because there is a sub genre for S.F called "Hard Science Fiction" which wholly focuses on completly feasible S.F texts. Star Wars is catagorised as Space Opera, another sub genre of S.F it contains many tropes themes and archetypes of S.F and is without a doubt an extrapolation from known science so, therefore is S.F.
     
  25. Jhunter

    Jhunter Mmm, bacon. Contributor

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    I didn't write or come up with the definition. So therefore it is not my opinion.
     

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