I have a married M/F couple lying in bed. POV is from the woman. The sex is over and the pillow talk is about to go sideways (which suuuuuuucks in real life). They're going to argue obliquely about having kids. He wants them but she doesn't. It's an old argument (most of them are) with familiar streets and landmarks but neither of them--especially him--want to hit the ignition switch (kids) directly because they don't want to acknowledge that a deal-breaker is forming on the horizon. He's more into the discussion than she is. It's his dime, so to speak. She just wants him to drop it before it escalates. I guess what I'm looking for are things they might say while still dancing around the issue without going over-the-top with "We're not getting any younger" or "Whose going to take care of us when we're old?" Or some guidelines as to what they might be feeling. Regret and resentment are the obvious ones, but I'm trying to get a sense of how the conversation might go and what things the man might express that hint at the issue without coming at it directly. I should add that this is a bit of flashback, time-drift-y thing where the reader already knows that the female MC is in her 50s and childless, though not necessarily that she was married and divorced in her past. That has been intimated and signposted but not stated explicitly. Any comments are welcome (beyond opinions on the utility of flashbacks... I'm not a fan either but this is a quirky, non-linear narrative).
Little personal anecdotes might be fun to work with. The husband can talk about a person he knows who either did or did not have children, and the effect of that on his legacy. Does the husband own a business? Did his father pass it down to him? Does the father otherwise do things that he wants to teach to a child? Similarly, you can have the wife tell an anecdote about a couple whose lives have been ruined as a result of kids, or this couple wasn’t able to do something because of the kids. I don’t know. I think familial legacy is a good route to explore, and little anecdotes from the perspective of husband and wife would allow for oblique discussion without saying “I do\dont want kids.”
When Harry met Sally, in the movie she talks about how they both agreed they did not want to have kids but one day with a friends kid she saw a family and realized how much she wanted to have that same thing. They broke up after that. Possible to use what is around, they want what everyone else has.
I have a friend who has 3 kids but once longed to have a 4th child. She told me once that there was a time when she forever felt like she was missing one child. She would count all the heads and get 3 kids and be actively looking for still another one. She said she felt like her ex-husband "robbed" her of a 4th child. In a way, we're in this dilemma ourselves. We already have one daughter, but my husband desperately wants a second one. I, on the other hand, am not too keen. Whenever the conversation comes up, he just says, "We'll wait. There's no rush." He's hoping the gentle approach will eventually lead me to wanting one myself; he's still betting on the biological clock (I'm only 30) to start ticking and that suddenly I'll get all hormonal and want another one (which is pretty much what happened the first time, actually). Equally, I've had dreams where I regretted not having had the second child, and dreams where I've had the second child and remember nothing of labour lol. It's hard to say how the conversation might go without actually just writing it myself. Perhaps unrelated, but for a woman, the discomfort of pregnancy and the potential of getting extremely sick during this is real. The extreme pain of labour is also real. Those are actual factors in why I don't want a second one sometimes.
Wake up, Maggie, I think I've got something to sayyyyy to you.... (sorry, I did Rod Stewart's dressing room a few times at the casino... he looked like a Xmas ornament, like somebody could hang him on a tree and he would just go to sleep) I vaguely remember that movie but not that part of it. Might rewatch it... I remember being amused when it was big. That seems to be a common vibe... the whole family thing. And people always want others have. Often to a less-than-ideal end.
I've been in that conversation and argument (though never at that particular moment. Don't the endorphins keep things from going--never mind.). He wanted kids, I did not, or at least not for a very long time, if ever. I was heavily leaning toward no. Some reasons and the feelings behind them: Her career is going well, she's on the cusp of making a longheld career dream she's had since she was a teenager come true, and having a kid would bring it to a screeching halt. (Sadness, fear, uncertainty.) Sadness and anger that her dreams aren't important to him and that he is oblivious and dismissive to things she's always wanted. On his part: bewilderment that she isn't on the same page as him. Anger that he's not being heard? Resentment that it's her body and ultimately up to her? Husband is irresponsible and doesn't do well with stress, and when he's stressed out, he gets even more irresponsible and reckless. So, she deep down doesn't trust him to father a child, because she knows he'll bail and leave her with all of the responsibility when life gets hard. (Fear, mistrust, uncertainty.) She may not even know she doesn't trust him with this. It may be that she just can't visualize having a kid with him. He may have a job that takes him away from home all the time, and she doesn't want to be left with most of the responsibility. (Fear, resentment.) She worries about their finances or job insecurity. (Fear.) She's content with their lifestyle. He is not. (Restless.) ETA: She had a lot of responsibility at an early age and finally feels free to live her own life, so she doesn't want a new responsibility. (Not sure what that emotion or feeling is, but I have it.) Dancing around the issue? Totally foreign concept to me, so I have no idea what the conversation would be from that angle. I'm the "rip the band-aid off" type so everyone can get on with their life. ETA: I'm a fan of the flashback. Every memory we have is a flashback.
As someone who adamantly doesn't want children and, currently, presents as female, there are so many small things that can be said and done that can bring up the topic without bringing it up. One easy way is talking about having grandchildren another is talking about a family with children; this is particularly annoying if it's a close friend. "Who's going to take care of us?" or, if the conversation happens near a holiday, bringing up toys that would be great for kids also helps. Eventually this leads to "Do you want kids?" followed by the guy saying "Yes." or something similar. Then the conversation starts fully. Whenever the subject's danced around or brought up directly, I feel a bit defensive and a bit pissed off particularly if they're pushing about it. Pregnancy 100% disgusts me and birth outright grosses me out so I have some very strong and negative emotions when it comes to producing children of my own. These often rival the negative emotions I have when it comes to the idea of also raising children. Eventually it turns into resentment if I don't break off the relationship right away. It's why "Do you want kids?" is the first thing I ask of potential dating partners because if the answer is anything but an adamant "No" then I know that this relationship is going to be awful for one of us.
So, what do we know He wants children. She does not. They both know this is something that is a big, maybe fatal question. He is running the show just now. She wants them to drop the thing. I think this is almost impossible for him. I mean there is nothing he can do. Either he once more just says he wants children straight out (no use trying to be subtle, she will see trough anything like that) This could lead to the end of their relationship. Or He drops the whole subject. (And hopes for the biological watch) Or he tries to make it a hypothetical question, "Well, Karen I know we will not have any children, I fully support you in that, but what would we name a hypothetical girl, I love the name Susan." Sort of talk about children but not talk about them at the same time. I think this is very tricky. I was very frightened about the responsibility of raising children. I still remember that. I wrote a small flash for the WF contest where I had a grandfather talking about this with his grandson and explaining that he didn't want to have children. It was easy to write that. When my wife read the story she said that I was wrong. "You just didn't know that you wanted children!" she said. Good luck. If you want unsubtle hints my wife brought the very basket she had slept in to us long before we had any children. It now waits in the cellar for any of our children to use. Mothers and mothers in law can also be used (their opinions on the matter)
"So the pitter patter of little feet would be a nice adition." "Yeah, if your going to carry it to term." "Hm..." (10mnths Later) "C'mon honey you can do it." "Oh god, this is agony!" "Quit your bitchin! You wanted a kid, and now you know what it's like to birth one." (Huffing) "I know, but I wasn't ready for this." "Shoulda thought of that before you got yourself in this mess, Steve." "Bit...late...for...you....to...tell...me." "Live and learn honey, live and learn."
Okay hmm, stealthy conversation starters... "We have that extra room. Would be nice to find good use for it." "I met my old buddy Tom this morning when I was getting coffee. He'd just dropped his kid to school. Greenfields Elementary. It's a nice school. Not very far from where we live." "I had a dream I was playing catch with our daughter. She looked just like you, you know." "Having sex with a condom feels like there's a rubber boot on my dick." I don't know if these are any good. Sometimes we talk about having kids with my hubby but neither of us wants them right now. He's probably more enthusiastic than I cos he doesn't have to carry the little parasite. I, on the other hand, don't want to shit, piss and bleed profusely in front of strangers, so it's been a bit hard to sell me the idea.
I may have mentioned this before, but that's literally the one moment in my entire life when I genuinely thought: I wish I were a man. Till now sometimes I look at a little girl - just anyone, friend or someone on the street - and think to myself, You unfortunate little thing. You have to go through this shit.
I can offer conclusive proof that being kicked in the balls is worse than childbirth i.e you often hear women say "i'd like to have another kid" whereas you never hear men say " I really fancy a kick in the nuts today" QED *runs and hides*
I think the man could squirm up to it with talking about other people's kids. Not, like, "Becky wasn't sure about getting pregnant but look how happy she is now." but more like "It was great to see Becky and Tom. They seem really happy. I'm glad that worked out for them." and then leave it to the woman to reach the conclusions.
I think everybody is missing the one thing I noticed right away. The woman is in her 50s? The chances that she has started or is about to start her menopause are pretty major. (I started mine when I was 47 ...thank goodness for HRT!) Even if she's still fertile and has a baby right NOW, she'll be pushing 70 when the child finishes high school.
I read that as the argument being a flashback to when she was younger... she's in her 50s now and has no kids, so the reader knows how things turned out, but the argument plays out in a flashback.
Bay, your post made me think of something else. If my partner approached such an important subject as this in such a...to my mind, manipulative, cowardly way, I'd lose a lot of respect for him. I honestly would. That's when things would go really sideways! ETA: That approach may work well with a lot of people, so I'm not saying it would be cowardly and manipulating to them. I'm saying it would be to approach me about it that way. That's not the kind of partner I work well with.
Yeah, I wouldn't expect the woman to react well to it - they're supposed to be fighting! But I don't know if I'd go all the way to manipulative and cowardly... maybe cautious and tentative?
This might be a really terrible idea but this is what I'd do : They're both in bed, calm and at peace and nobody feels the need to say anything. Then at some point she feels he's being a bit too silent; something's on his mind. Then out of no where, he brings out : "Do you ever think about having kids?" Yeah it's straight to the point, but from what I've learned beating myself up to bring a specific topic into an exchange, it's better that than turning around the point throwing sentences around because 80% of the time the reader will notice. Perhaps it sounds a bit weird just written like that but I don't think it's so strange. These are intimate moments in which people are often so comfortable with someone, you kind of drop social etiquettes and just talk about whatever however. Besides I don't think it's that weird to think about kids after sex, like it is how you make a baby.
I would see it as cowardly and manipulative, but that's my preferred communication style with a partner, because to me, that's the one person you're supposed to be able to be honest and open with. My immediate thought would be, "He's asking us to share the most intimate experience a couple can share (having a kid), but he doesn't have the balls to talk about it?" And I'd lose respect for him. But again, that's just me. Others prefer different communications styles, and that's OK. ETA: But that certainly could be a cause of conflict and why they broke up.
Oh, I was assuming they'd already had the direct conversation many times, and he was just checking in to see if maybe she'd changed her mind. If they haven't already talked about it, then, yeah, sure, the direct approach makes sense.
Haha... that's awesome! I'm totally stealing that. Not for this piece, but somewhere down the line. Yeah, I hear that from women all the time. The typical refrain seems to be, "I might want kids but I don't want to give birth." Or as one of the kids (18) at work said the other day: "No way I'm pushing that thing out of my [uterus]!" That would probably most closely approximate what I was thinking. The gag here is that shortly after the divorce, Holly's ex is remarried with a couple of kids within like 4 or 5 years or something. This little passage of the story (3-4 pages?) actually culminates with Holly having dinner with her ex and his new family when they come to NYC on vacation 10 years later. Haven't written that part yet but I plan to have fun with it. The new wife will have a weird quirk like a lazy eye or a missing finger or something. Or maybe a tattoo on her face. Yep, it plays like a flashback but isn't really. After Cupid shoots Holly in the face she becomes "unstuck" (to borrow from Vonnegut) in time and relives certain moments in her life in different ways. Sometimes twenty or thirty years at a time. In one of them, for example, she goes to visit her mother but twenty years pass in the time it takes her to walk from the kitchen to the living room. It sounds a bit convoluted but really isn't... I hope. The gag here is that once somebody visits Club Eternity their perception of time is forever fucked because, you know, eternity is eternal. Yep. Been there, done that. The more I think about it, the more I think that they should argue about something unrelated and innocuous, but like when all couples fight, it always comes back to the same argument they've been having for years.
But by writing this post, it's clear you want to be kicked in the balls. You're just asking in a real sneaky way You defeat your own argument!
Oh I could tell you stories. You have just described the story of me and Ex #2. I was content with our lifestyle, he was not and wanted kids while I was avidly pursuing my dream career and it was starting to happen, every argument we ever had turned right back to our wanting different things, and ultimately, it came out that he wanted a stay at home wife with kids. We split, and in less than a year he married a woman a lot like you're describing above (ETA which was fucking bizarre), and he got custody of his son, so instant family. Any questions, feel free to ask or PM.
Interesting to see what I missed. Met a lovely elderly lady about an hour ago on another forum, and she would do way worse than a simple swift kick to the balls. (I believe her screen name lives up to its self.)
