1. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    A question about Deep Point of View from author's work

    Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by anitaex100, Jun 6, 2017.

    Greetings, I have been studying deep point of view more closely and I have been rereading some of my favorite authors' book. I was rereading one of Ilona Andrews's books and listening to the audiobook. I think her writing is a mostly deep point of view. Am I right? For example,

    Rose sighed. Here, in the Edge, she could protect them well enough. But they were about to pass from the Edge into another world, and their magic would die in the crossing. The two hunting rifles on the floor would be their only defense. Rose felt a pang of guilt. If it wasn't for her, they wouldn't need the rifles. God, she didn't want to be jumped again. Not with her brothers in the car.

    They lived between worlds: on one side lay the Weird and the other the Broken. Two dimensions, existing side by side, like mirror images of each other. In the place where the dimensions "touched," they intersected slightly, forming a narrow ribbon of land that belonged to both of them - the Edge. In the Weird, magic pooled deeply; in the Edge it was a shallow trickle. But in the Broken, no magic shielded them at all.

    Ilona Andrews, On The Edge (2009)

    Is it still deep point of view even with the filter word "felt?"
     
  2. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I don't think the use of felt as a filter verb there really changes the depth in the POV all that much.
     
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  3. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    Thanks! I appreciate the quick reply.
     
  4. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    No worries. :) And to be a little more specific... I would argue that of the two paragraphs quoted, the second is "deeper" than the first in that we have almost no guiding syntax referring us back to who is thinking this or engaging this. But to take a whole story and try to classify the depth of its POV based solely on such a small fragment (or just on a word, as in the original question) is to engage the question at too granulated a level. We would need to step back and take it in at a larger scale, to be honest. Do I think there's value in wanting to know how filter verbs affect depth? Absolutely, since we know that filter verbs create distance of engagement, but I don't think this means that they cannot be present, ever, in a piece that we regard as "deep" POV.

    Sorry for the rambling.... :bigoops: :-D
     
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  5. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    What an awesome answer, Wreybies! Your further explanation has taught me something new today. I have so many questions. I feel like the kid who always wants to know how something works and ask a million questions.
     
  6. Shadowfax

    Shadowfax Contributor Contributor

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    How could you rephrase that to omit felt?

    Answers on a postcard, please!
     
  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I know what you mean but, to be fair, you could eliminate the whole sentence and not lose anything. It's pretty clear from the following sentences that she feels guilty.
     
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  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    In the context of that paragraph, you could just leave that sentence out. Let the reader deduce, from the sentence that follows, that she feels guilty. This is what the filter words do. They tell the reader what the POV character feels or thinks. You can simply convey the situation as below and let the reader figure the guilt thing thing out for themselves.

    Rose sighed. Here, in the Edge, she could protect them well enough. But they were about to pass from the Edge into another world, and their magic would die in the crossing. The two hunting rifles on the floor would be their only defense. If it wasn't for her, they wouldn't need the rifles. God, she didn't want to be jumped again. Not with her brothers in the car.
     
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  9. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    Awesome feedback! I appreciate it, everyone.

    Rose sighed. Here, in the Edge, she could protect them well enough. But they were about to pass from the Edge into another world, and their magic would die in the crossing. The two hunting rifles on the floor would be their only defense. If it wasn't for her, they wouldn't need the rifles. God, she didn't want to be jumped again. Not with her brothers in the car. Jannert, I love this example.
     
  10. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    I was going to ask this question in another post, but it's on the same subject. Basically, I want to be sure if something I wrote is in deep point of view.

    After slipping into her leather boots, she picked up a flashlight, tossed it into a purse she'd borrowed from Zora's closet and stalked out of her room.

    If I'd wrote this line in the first point of view, it seems like it would be in deep point of view or am I wrong?

    After slipping into her leather boots, I picked up a flashlight, tossed it into a purse I'd borrowed from Zora's closet and stalked out of her room.
     
  11. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Deep POV is about how you integrate (or delineate) a character's thoughts and opinions from their actions and dialogue. In a line where all you have is actions, it can't really be deep or shallow. I mean, how would you make that line more distant if you wanted to avoid deep POV?
     
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  12. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I agree with @Tenderiser. You can't look at just that one line. It's like showing me a photo of one tree trunk and asking me what kind of forest this is. Can't tell. I need the camera to back up, like, a lot. What other trees are present? Is it even a forest or just a stand of trees?
     
  13. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    Okay, here is an excerpt from my chapter nine. It's a blend of science fiction and fantasy with a bit of horror in the mix.

    Aria scowled. Her image, distorted by the cracked mirror, scowled back. A silvery gown hugged her body, but Prince Alexander had seen hundreds of gowns worn by beautiful, seductive and sophisticated girls trained from the crib to hook the best catch they could. What chance did she have?

    Stop. I need to ask for his help for Nana. That’s all.

    A picture formed in Aria's mind of Nana’s gaunt body on a med bed, tubes attached themselves to her permanently sleeping body. Two more years, the doctor had said.

    If I could just reach him, I know Alexander won't let Marianna pull the plug on Nana.

    Thunder clapped and lightning illuminated the dark, charcoal-colored walls of her small bedroom. Another storm was brewing. Aria glanced at the silver high heels, glistening on the vinyl floor. Impractical. If I need to run, I sure as hell won't get far in those.

    After slipping into her leather boots, she picked up a flashlight, tossed it into a purse she'd borrowed from Zora's closet and stalked out of her room.
     
  14. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    No, that isn't deep point of view - you're presenting thoughts in first person, in italics, clearly delineated from the narrative, and using filter words here and there.

    Deep POV would be something like:

    Aria scowled. Her image, distorted by the cracked mirror, scowled back. A silvery gown hugged her body, but Prince Alexander had seen hundreds of gowns worn by beautiful, seductive and sophisticated girls trained from the crib to hook the best catch they could. What chance did she have?

    Enough negative thinking. All she had to do was ask for his help for Nana.

    A picture formed in Aria's mind of Nana’s gaunt body on a med bed, tubes attached themselves to her permanently sleeping body. Two more years, the doctor had said.

    If she could just reach Alexander, he wouldn't let Marianna pull the plug.

    Thunder clapped and lightning illuminated the dark, charcoal-colored walls of her small bedroom. Another storm was brewing. Her silver high heels glistened on the vinyl floor. Impractical. If she needed to run, she sure as hell wouldn't get far in those.

    After slipping into her leather boots, she picked up a flashlight, tossed it into a purse she'd borrowed from Zora's closet and stalked out of her room.
     
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  15. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    Love the changes you made, Tenderiser! Thanks for helping me see that.
     
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  16. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    I have another example if that's okay. I didn't want to put up another thread, but these days I'm studying deep point of view more often. Anyways the author, Jami Gold, says that she writes in a deep point of view. I did read the sample pages of her work. I'm about ninety percent certain that it's deep point of view, but then someone else says it isn't. I'm mostly sure because the word "she" is in both passages below. What do you guys think?

    1. She searched the ballroom for hidden threats. Tapestries on either side of an alcove caught her eye, where a red and bronze dragon confronted a knight brandishing a sword. Her fingernails sharpened into points. Well, that was… Disturbing. But not dangerous.
    2. No, she was probably just off-kilter because of the way that man, Alexander Wyatt, had stared at her. Could he know she didn’t belong? Or had the assistant at his side identified her? Between her hair color change and her attempt to remain unobtrusive during the meeting with Stefano, she’d assumed Mr. Wyatt’s assistant wouldn’t recognize her.
     
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm not sure why "she" would take us out of deep point of view. People do sometimes think the word "I". So "No, I was probably just off-kilter because..." wouldn't be out of place in first person, right? And this is third person, so it becomes "she".
     
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  18. anitaex100

    anitaex100 Member

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    So you would say that this is deep point of view?
     
  19. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm a little fuzzy on deep versus not deep. I suspect(?) that it's a spectrum, not an absolute label. If I deliberately try to make it less deep--adding filter words and attributions, and so on, I get (the below is fairly ungraceful; if I spent more time there'd be less of that listlike "she she she" feel):

    She searched the ballroom for hidden threats. She saw tapestries on either side of an alcove, showing a red and bronze dragon confronted a knight brandishing a sword. She saw that the knight's fingernails were sharpened into points. Well, that was…disturbing, she thought. But she decided that it wasn't dangerous.

    She concluded that she was probably just off-kilter because of the way that man, Alexander Wyatt, had stared at her. She wondered, could he know she didn’t belong? Or had the assistant at his side identified her? Between her hair color change and her attempt to remain unobtrusive during the meeting with Stefano, she’d assumed Mr. Wyatt’s assistant wouldn’t recognize her.


    I notice that the "she'd assumed", at the end, is rather like what I've been adding, but it was there in the first place. If I wanted to turn it around and re-deep it, I might make it:

    Between her hair color change and her attempt to remain unobtrusive during the meeting with Stefano, surely Mr. Wyatt’s assistant hadn't recognized her.

    And I'm not sure about the "caught her eye" in the original.

    Anyway, I guess I'd say that the original is deepish. :)
     
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  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I respond to myself to say: I feel that the examples are deep in a mechanical sense--not a lot of filter words, etc. But I'm actually not getting a lot of access to her emotions or personality. I think that's where my "ish" comes from.
     
  21. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Yes, that's deep POV. I agree with @ChickenFreak that it's a spectrum, and also that "caught her eye" could be construed as a filter, but it also might not be. If you remove it, the link between the tapestries and her fingernails sharpening wouldn't be as obvious.
     
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