Tags:
  1. NateSean

    NateSean Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bennington, VT

    A Question About Paradoxical Undressing and Hypothermia

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by NateSean, Dec 26, 2017.

    In a story I'm planning for a contest, a man is found in the middle of the woods in the dead of winter. He should be dead as it is later discovered that he was in the final stages of hypothermia and in the middle of paradoxical undressing. But the search party that is initially tracking down a rabid wolf finds the man wrapped in a wolf's fur.

    FYI, he is not a werewolf and no werewolf is involved in this. But the conditions of the contest involve a psychic wolf. Just so that's clear. But I'm trying to severely limit the paranormal element of the story by having a teensy bit of realism.

    My question is this.

    Paradoxical undressing usually occurs before death by hypothermia. But is it feasible to have the character rescued from the brink of death by the fur? If the people investigating the incident find that the fur was recently applied and the man is brought to a hospital soon enough, could he still survive or would at least be believable if that were the case?
     
  2. Jak of Hearts

    Jak of Hearts Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    Topeka, Kansas
    I would say no. In hypothermia you're core body temperature has dropped. Normally when you wrap someone in a blanket you're trapping their own body heat in with them, if he has a reduced body heat then it won't help. He'd need an external heat source such as another live body, a warm building, etc. I would not think the fur would do anything at that point.

    Not saying that if they found him minutes later that they wouldn't still be able to get him to a hospital and save him anyway, but I don't think the fur would do much if any good at that point.
     
    Fernando.C and NateSean like this.
  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,385
    Likes Received:
    7,080
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Just because your core body temp is lowered doesn't mean you no longer have any metabolic activity creating heat.

    Other than he is likely to lose fingers, toes and maybe the tip of his nose, people can survive severe hypothermia if they are resuscitated in time. The body conserves vital function by slowing metabolic rate and shifting circulation to key organs.
     
    Fernando.C likes this.
  4. NateSean

    NateSean Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bennington, VT
    Interesting. That gives me something to look into.
     
    Fernando.C likes this.
  5. Cave Troll

    Cave Troll It's Coffee O'clock everywhere. Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    17,922
    Likes Received:
    27,173
    Location:
    Where cushions are comfy, and straps hold firm.
    If he were smart then he would carry a flask or small bottle of whiskey or
    something with a high alcohol content. It would help keep him from freezing
    to a degree since alcohol has a much lower freezing point. Though you may
    want to see if this would actually work in practice, since it is a theory.
     
    Fernando.C and NateSean like this.
  6. Shenanigator

    Shenanigator Has the Vocabulary of a Well-Educated Sailor. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2017
    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    8,763
    I don't think it would. Otherwise homeless alcoholics wouldn't freeze to death, which unfortunatley happens.

    Is chocolate in rescue kits still a thing? It was until the mid-1980's when I was a kid in the Midwest. Everyone I knew who lived in areas where snowplows were rare kept chocolate in the glove box of the car in winter, and winter first aid kits used to include chocolate. The theory was that the energy from the sugar would warm you or something.
     
    Fernando.C, Cave Troll and NateSean like this.
  7. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    22,619
    Likes Received:
    25,920
    Location:
    East devon/somerset border
    Alcohol is definitely not a good idea - although it makes you feel warm it actually makes you more likely to lose heat.... stuff with a high sugar content like chocolate, kendal mint cake etc helps to an extent but you really need an external heat source fire, warm water, another body or whatever
     
  8. NateSean

    NateSean Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bennington, VT
    The main rub is that the search party is after a wolf they suspect might be rabid. So they're not necessarily equipped to rescue someone but the wolf, a paranormal being, has deliberately lead them to the dying individual.

    I think if I write it so the victim doesn't get off super light but will definitely live, it wouldn't be such a stretch. The bit about missing toes, fingers, and the nose tip seems like a good idea.
     
  9. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    18,851
    Likes Received:
    35,471
    Location:
    Face down in the dirt
    Currently Reading::
    Telemachus Sneezed
    God no, utterly wrong. Alcohol dilates your blood vessels, which makes blood flow through you more quickly and dissipates your body heat even quicker. You "freeze" to death long before your blood actually transforms to a solid.

    When you find someone who is hypothermic, the first thing you need to do is to get them out of any wet clothes, especially cotton, which can further remove heat from the body. Wet wool is okay, actually, as are some synthetics, but "Cotton kills" is a survival mantra, try pouring some water on your jeans and heading out when it's cool out and you'll see what I mean. Not sure about the properties of wolf fur, honestly, but I'd imagine it's pretty good, since they survive outside in the winter.

    The next thing you need to do is get naked with the victim. Skin to skin is an especially effective means of transferring heat, so someone whose body is in good condition should get inside a blanket/sleeping bag/wolf fur with the person who is freezing. Yes, giggle, but this is real survival manual stuff. Feeding them hot tea or cocoa is a good idea too, and I've heard of emergency rooms administering warm (how warm? Not sure) water enemas to raise core temperature, although this is something that you'd be unlikely to have the gear to accomplish in the field.

    So, a naked man, wrapped in a wolf fur, arrives at the hospital spooning with a naked villager.... Sounds kinky, but he could survive.
     
  10. NateSean

    NateSean Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bennington, VT
    Thank you for this. Especially that last bit.
     
    Iain Aschendale likes this.
  11. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,254
    Likes Received:
    19,879
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    I've nothing informative to add to this discussion, but it's negative 10 at my house and pushing negative 30 with the wind chill and I nearly died walking to my car. Weather advisory says frostbite will set in in less than 10 minutes. And there's ice falling all over the place. And trees snapping like popsicle sticks.

    That's all.

    ETA: I guarantee we'll find a body or two in the woods tomorrow.
     
    Trish likes this.
  12. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    Yep. Negative 20 here with wind chill. Your eyeballs freeze as soon as you step out the damn door.
     
    Homer Potvin likes this.
  13. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    18,851
    Likes Received:
    35,471
    Location:
    Face down in the dirt
    Currently Reading::
    Telemachus Sneezed
    5C (41F) here, but it's supposed to get near freezing at about 3 a.m. Better wear long sleeves.
     
    Trish likes this.
  14. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,254
    Likes Received:
    19,879
    Location:
    Rhode Island
    Shiiiiit, that's shorts and flip flop weather for me.
     
    Trish likes this.
  15. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    Not quite shorts and flip flops weather for me, I'm not as tough as @Homer Potvin , but short sleeves and no jacket is doable (and likely).
     
    Homer Potvin likes this.
  16. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2015
    Messages:
    18,851
    Likes Received:
    35,471
    Location:
    Face down in the dirt
    Currently Reading::
    Telemachus Sneezed
    I'm originally a Chicago boy, but the last decade and a half in this sunny southern clime has weakened me. In 2014 or so, we got an inch of snow here, which left a bit of pack and slush on the sidewalks and wet streets, but visible snow in the areas that weren't trafficked.

    The city canceled the bus services for the day, and the taxis all ran tire chains.

    Not kidding even one bit. I've seen people wearing gloves and scarves here when the temperatures were in the 50s (F).

    But in the summer, it never gets below 30C (86F), even in the middle of the night. I prefer the cold.
     
    minstrel and Trish like this.
  17. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,421
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    It's (usually) easier to get warm than it is to cool off. I'm with you on preferring the cold.
     
  18. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2017
    Messages:
    5,864
    Likes Received:
    10,738
    Location:
    The great white north.
    The thermometer at my place says -30°C and unless it clouds over it's likely to drop another 10-15°. Also, Paradoxical undressing happens only when a hypothermia patient is really far gone and in a lot of the reported cases, the victims tend to dig or burrow themselves somewhere like under a bed or into a cupboard. So chances of finding them wouldn't be great either.
     
    Iain Aschendale likes this.
  19. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    22,619
    Likes Received:
    25,920
    Location:
    East devon/somerset border
    its about minus three here - the papers are talking about an arctic blast :D

    The Max puppy hasn't seen ice before and was very unimpressed when he stuck his tongue to the waterbutt
     
    Iain Aschendale likes this.
  20. NateSean

    NateSean Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bennington, VT
    On frostbite I can offer no better solution than bag balm. It comes in the green tin and it's safe to apply to chapped skin. (Also, Pete, our library's celebrity cat loves me when I have it on)
     
  21. Devlin Blake-Novel Coach

    Devlin Blake-Novel Coach New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    8
    How did the fur get on him? In paradoxical undressing you remove all your clothes. Even if he found some fur, he wouldn't be capable of wrapping himself up in it as people in that stage feel they're on fire. And if someone put the fur on him, why would they just leave him there to die?
     
    NateSean likes this.
  22. NateSean

    NateSean Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Likes Received:
    54
    Location:
    Bennington, VT
    The paranormal element comes in here. The fur is all the wolf spirit/entity was able to do apart from leading the authorities to the hiker.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice