A unique question I kind of feel bad about to ask. (Mature Content)

I think this comes down to the basic idea of why?

The idea was that she can't figure out opinionated ideas which causes her frustration. So her worst nightmare is being idle. Being idle, even with an Alpha causes those thoughts to creep into her head. And she can't figure them out, which causes frustration.

And while taking care of animals, she isn't being idle. Lets say she was taking care of a pack of wolves. She can answer the questions that her mind thinks. Such, what do they need? That is objective. They need food, water, ext. Her mind isn't frustrated by that. So, taking on a job such as this prevents her from being idle. And well, wolves don't ask her questions like. "What is the meaning of life?" So is much less frustrated by them.

And yeah, before you ask. She could literally control a pack of wolves with her force. By force I mean she could physical hold them down. So she could show them that she can do this. After that, I bet she would control them with signals, like baring her teeth and growling.

In short. She needs a purpose. So much so that she doesn't care what it is. Which is why she serves an Alpha. It becomes her purpose. If that purpose dissolves, and she can't find another Alpha. She needs a purpose. Period. She can't handle the thoughts her mind has without one.

Does that explain the situation better?

Originally I figured her brand of weirdness just didn't exist in real life, but I suppose I wouldn't be surprised to learn otherwise.

 

I see. So it's more a need to keep busy with tasks and things that have clear, objective answers/solutions to stave off having to struggle with more complicated issues. That makes her almost-complete obedience to an alpha seem a bit shaky to me, honestly, because it seems like there'd be a much simpler way of essentially distracting herself - really, just about anything solvable that she can focus on. She could just as easily have ended up fixating on taking care of animals or children or cleaning over and over again or carving the perfect wooden duck. So that makes me think her predisposition towards relying on a person is probably a learned behavior, influenced by someone in her past who helped keep the bad thoughts at bad by employing her to help them - after losing that relationship, she'd seek out similar ones to satisfy her need to have some sort of well-defined purpose. So the compulsion for 'distraction' is the chemical component, and the reliance on an alpha figure is the environmental one. Yeah?

 

All sounds right. And yeah, her complete obedience is shaky. That was something that was mentioned before this point. In the sense that if a Alpha doesn't serve that purpose, she will abandon them.

Also yeah. The way I pictured it was that she lived in a society like ours. That in her early years, school and such things helped guide her and her condition wasn't extreme them as it later became.

Though, if I had to answer why she is devoted to an Alpha over animals and such things. I think it is superiority to her. Like, someone who says "I know what color you should wear." There is an air of authority to it that she can't deny. That is why even if she is physically stronger her devotion is solid. She views them as stronger because of the fact they know things she doesn't.

So, yes. I think you were right on your points. But I figured I would add a few notes. What do you think of those notes?

As it may not surprise you. She likes math! lol

 

I don't think it's rape because she is consenting. Just because it's extremely difficult to say no, doesn't mean the men she is having sex with are rapists. For all they know she's truly okay with it.

I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe in mental 'handicaps'. She CAN say no, it's just very difficult and there are things in the way. It means she has been traumatized and struggles with something very deeply, but in no way do I feel it should be reflected on the men as bad guys.

 

But it's not that's it's extremely difficult, it's that she has no real concept of consent. Consent hinges on her condition, not her own will and desires. It's not wanted sex, just compulsive. It's who he she is on a level she can't choose or singly change.

 

Then keep living in a fantasy world where non neurotypical women aren't raped and forced to give birth to their rapist's child because they couldn't say no, or even yes.

Tell one of my friends from middle school cases like hers [father rapist, mother a mentally disabled woman in a group home] don't happen often. Tell that to my sister, who when we had to place her in a home temporarily while my mother was sick, all of the staff and her doctors strongly encouraged getting a hysterectomy because this is so prevalent, and because she is nonverbal?

This is a real problem women who are unable to say no go through every day, and personally I find it offensive because it diminishes their need for advocacy.
http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/25/nyregion/rape-and-the-mentally-retarded.html?pagewanted=all
http://www.rrsonline.org/?page_id=944

Note the second link, where it mentions the following:

• Women with disabilities are raped and abused at a rate at least twice that of the general population of women.44

• Among adults who are developmentally disabled, as many as 83% of the females and 32% of the males are victims of sexual assault

Over 80% of developmentally disabled women are sexually assaulted at some point. That is horrifying.

Maybe it is my personal experiences with this, but reading a character like this would make me and countless others very uncomfortable and possibly angry.

 

Consent isn't about saying 'no', anyway. It's about saying 'yes'.

 

For one. I want to say. I am not even going to pretend to know the kind of feelings you have to know people that have suffered such tragedy.

Yet, some stories have different elements. I made a point of saying that she doesn't have sex with her current Alpha. So that ones is down a bit. The real issue I see here is a bit different.

Which is that there are heart breaking stories in the real world and people with disabilities. So, fake stories can and to some degree should feature them.

This reminds me of an event I saw. In which a character on a show was featured as having wall eyes, a speech imbediment and somewhat slow in answering questions. The mothers of America united and petitioned to have the character banned. Claiming that the character was an insult to children with disabilities. Which, I can understand the argument, but me? I disagree. I mean, to imply that TV must only show perfection. Isn't that more insulting? I mean, I know the character is fake, but they were basically saying to delete her because she was not perfect? And yes, obviously a character could be insulting. But she wasn't. She was happy, people didn't make fun of her. She was involved in social activies. She was a normal character with disabilities. What is wrong with that?

That is sort of the issue that a few others are talking about here. Yes, before I start. You are right. Plenty of people are victims in this situation and that is horrible and talking advantage of anyone that doesn't understand or isn't capable of functioning properly is well horrible. If you want to call the Alpha horrible? Sure easy, no one on this forum I think is going to disagree with that. Since I mentioned why he is a jerk. But someone else pointed out something interesting. Which is. Is my girl really a victim?

She engages in the relationship, she asks for things and she is happy. Yes, she is handicaped and taking advantage of that is horrible, no argument there, but does she sound like a victim?

 

She's not exactly "the victim" but she's not capable of consent in that relationship. To anything really. She's under his control, whoever or whatever you place the blame on.

And thank you for that earlier bit about representation. It's not about to offenze, or inciting offense, and it shouldn't. It's about simply depicting things. We depict people with green eyes sometimes. So sometimes we depict people with albinism. We depict straight people sometimes, a lot. So sometimes we depict gay people. It's essentially realism to depict real human diversity.

 

Here is I think a big point.

If she isn't,a victim, is the situation bad? Even if we call it rape. If it is a victimless rape(wow I feel bad using those two words together.) then is it bad? I feel like I am phrasing myself poorly. The idea to rape is it victimizes someone, so if even by text book definition she is not able to have sex without it being rape. If she isn't a victim, what does it matter? I mean, in theory, isn't the reverse more victimizing to her.

By which I mean this. If she can't consent to sex. Are you saying she should never in her life have sex? Even if her condition and biology pulls her to wanting it? I mean, that feels more like victimizing. To tell her she isn't allowed because she is handicaped? To be fair here. I am not arguing this as a point. I am more playing devils advocate with this one.

 

Um....

Do you believe in illness of any kind? Or is it all imaginary?

 

Typically when someone with a mental or verbal handicap wants something, they will let you know in some way or another. My sister is nonverbal but will indicate if she really wants or needs something. If she wanted sexual affection with another person, she would probably demonstrate it in some way.

I didn't mean to get aggressive or protective. You have been very eloquent and respectful with this sensitive subject throughout the thread, facilitating some interesting conversations.

 

Yes, but that is what makes her so hard. Her desire is to not be frustrated and she achieves that by helping people. Doing what you want to do helps her avoid frustration, but because of that, if she thinks you want sex for example. She will act as if she wants it. Even though she may not want it. In a sense, I mean by what I just said. She does sort of want, right?

Thank you. I try. The last thing anyone should do is bring up a topic on handicap and rape and morality and starting lecturing. Heck, even if I was a psychological expert, if I were to just be over confident and pushy with a position wouldn't help. Right? lol

 

If she felt the true desire, in an ucompromised situation, and expressed that, then she would be consenting. But if she has sex purely to fulfill an obedience compulsion, without a say, she's not consenting.

 

But she is in a sense doing both. Unless you count her very condition as compromising.

 

Her condition is compromising because she does things regardless of her own desire, out of a compulsion to obey her Alpha. I'm pretty that kind of compulsion doesn't count as consent legally. Everything he tell her to do for his benefit is an abuse of her circumstances.

 

The word "rape" is pretty controversial (as evidenced by this thread), so I think it makes more sense to look at the issue separately from a legal and moral standpoint. I can't really speak for the legal side, as I'm not a lawyer. But on the moral side of things: to me, morality is about what you know, and when you know it. If the man (let's call him Bob) gets odd vibes from the woman (let's call her Alice), then he should probably start suspecting things are amiss, and that Alice has some kind of psychological issue. Once he does realize this, it would be immoral in my opinion for him to have sex with her, or to take advantage of her in any other way really. That includes trying to sell her something, asking to borrow something valuable, etc. If Bob is aware that Alice has a psychological issue preventing her from saying no, then I think it is rape.

If Bob doesn't know that she has these issues (such as if they just met), then I don't think he can be blamed for it. However, I'd argue that he has a moral obligation to help her seek professional help, particularly if they were in a proper relationship. The analogy that I think fits this well is this: imagine if you accidentally stole something. Maybe you mistook someone else's coat for yours and picked it up. I don't consider it immoral to accidentally take something that belongs to someone else, but I do think you have a moral obligation to return what you stole. You can't undo having sex with someone, but you can make amens to them. I don't think someone who inadvertently has sex with someone who is in a poor psychological state should be thrown in jail, but as I said, I think they should try and help that person seek real help.

And that's the one issue that I don't think there's any question on: she needs help. A "hero" wouldn't have sex with her, but would instead help her to grow, to the point where she can, and frequently does, say no to things. Then, he can enter a relationship with her, but only if she consents.

 

Hey there! Want my opinion? Too bad, here it is:
As someone who is both female and has been raped, I don't think this situation would be considered rape. I'm sure the spectrum of experience is a broad one and varies greatly from person to person, but here's the common denominator between most cases: in the end, the survivor feels like what just happened was not right, whether it's a feeling that leaves you physically shaken and traumatized or it's a gnawing feeling in the back of your mind. Regardless of your character's condition, it seems that she holds her alpha on a pedestal but doesn't invest much emotionally, so sex may be as intimate as a handshake to her. What I'm curious to know is how these guys treat her. Do they take advantage of her willingness, or do they try to do right by her? I'm also curious to know if she will ever come to see things differently. If she were to have that connection and not be so emotionally detached, would she be horrified that she had sex with these men, or would she still be okay with it? It's an uncomfortable situation, if nothing else, and it would be very hard to convince me--as a reader--to believe that, if she's truly the detached type of person, the men she chooses actually have feelings for her and care about her needs as much as their own. To me, it's still not rape, but there are definitely much nobler men in the world who wouldn't take advantage of her.
PS This is a long thread and I skimmed over the middle parts, so I apologize if I said something that's already been said.

 

Yeah, this has been a long thread. A lot of people are interested. You didn't miss much.
Well, except she has had multiple Alphas. So some were probably nice, others not so much. As if she ever became more emotional how would she remember that? I am not sure, since at the time she was okay with it. I assume her memory of the event would reflect that, but I am no expert.

Thank you for sharing your opinion and experience.

 

Interesting opinion. I definitely think you bring up a good question. Where is he line for it to be considered rape? What exactly is rape? It all depends. Semantics being rather, you know, semantic.

 

What do you mean you didn't miss much? That's sounds a bit dismissive of other people on this thread. Isn't that rude? Am I misinterpreting you? I hope you don't mean it that way.

 

I meant that her post didn't have something that that was previously answered. Like, she didn't ask a question that forced me to repeat myself because she missed it on page 3.

Of course I loved this entire discussion and everyone that has added to it. Fault me for poor phrasing? It happens to us all sometimes.

 

Still, that doesn't make the men she has sex with rapists. If they are AWARE she has no concept of consent, the line fades, and we can question their true intentions. But if they have no idea, how can they possibly be bad guys? It's like me telling someone that I'm fine with the colour red while inside I'm freaking out because I hate it. It's not the fault of the asker...

You're taking this way too personally. The OP said mental handicap, she didn't mention anything specific, so describing a mental condition here is irrelevant. It's up to the OP to decide to what extend this mental handicap is, and how it will be portrayed.

Don't expect the rest of us to be as aware about this as you are.

I do. I am a psychologist and have been treating patients for about 3 years now. I also suffer from several "mental handicaps", but they aren't really handicaps. It's part(s) of the brain that are underdevelopped or not developed at all, but to me this isn't a handicap or dead end. Like I said, it's not that she physically cannot, she's not mentally equipped to.

Unless of course this is a neurological disorder, or injury or trauma which is a different story. As I mentioned, it depends on how far the OP wants to take it.

Mental conditions aren't illnesses, and treating them as such is very derogatory. That's why the field of psychology is extremely behind, and why most treatment centers prescribe drugs instead of healing the root problem and getting down to the core of the mental-physical connection and how the brain truly is malleable and can be improved.

I'm sticking to my guns. This isn't a handicap, it's an obstacle or underdevelopment. I believe that unless it's a physical deformation or neurological condition of the brain, any such 'handicap' is merely a bump in the road and one that might take lots of effort and energy to overcome or learn, but nonetheless it's not a permanent thing, and I resent those who believe it is.

Mental illnesses, for the most part, can be overcome. I am a walking example and know several patients who have unconditioned themselves from their mentally 'ill' conditions.

 

Ah. So it sounds like you saying that your an optimist. You don't like calling people handicapped because you believe they can still function or over come it?

Oh, an expert! I love it! I am not sure if you saw all the posts. So let me briefly summarize what you may have missed. Because, well, fiction. My original point of view was her condition probably doesn't exist. But I still have points of the express what that condition is. So perhaps it does exist or perhaps you could label what it would be if it did exist.

- Black and white view. Sees the world is a completely objective view. Feels that opinions are based on some logical ideology that for some reason she doe not understand.
- As such she personally views herself as inferior, their is a rule, or law of nature around her that has just not been made available to her, yet others make decisions, so they have it.
- She is greatly frustrated when she begins to imagine the concept of subjectivity. To the point of self harm(head banging) if prolonged.
- I think the conditioned worsened with age. Places like school which were about guiding her supported her condition. To the point no one really noticed she was different. She just copied people, but as she grew up and gained the expectations of becoming a leader or adult herself. Her condition worsened as she clung to anyone for the support she needed.
- She actually prefers to be non-verbal. This is because ever since school, she is always looking, studying her environment. She starred at the children's faces. She would read their body language. She became good at that. So when someone says something that conflicts with their body language it confuses her. So she ignores the words in this case.
- She is proactive. Assigning an Alpha is all about taking away her frustration, to the point that she will run away if they are not doing so. She hates being idle because of how thinking naturally creeps in. So she will attempt to guess the desires of her Alpha and fulfil them long before they are asked. Her guesses will be based on things like body language.
- Her Alpha is meant to be an air of authority, disrespecting that authority will invoke an angry response. Sadly, this can be in more than one way. Since Alpha is basically god in her mind. If for example he asked her to get bread, she may try and steal the bread. Her mind can't comprehend this idea of him having to earn it. Like she may internally think. "He is god, god wants bread. God will have bread. Anyone that attempts to stop me from giving god bread is a bad person. Bad people should die."

So, what do you think? I thought this would be a brain condition. Like a damaged area of the brain. Like she was born with brain damage. But you work in the field. So I would love your opinion.

 

Well, it's not rape in her own mind, it's simply obeying. But from my point of view, as I see this woman, her mind does not allow her to say no, therefore anyone that knows about her mental state, and is using her for sexual activities is manipulating and in the end raping her due to the fact that she is not able to consent. But that's just from my view as an outsider, I would argue on her behalf, but would she accept me arguing for her? Her mind saw what she did as an act of obedience and has no issues with what happened (Unless she got hurt maybe...? And weakened her will to her master??)
In the end, I think it was rape. Those 4 men have consciences, they manipulated her.