A unique question I kind of feel bad about to ask. (Mature Content)

So as a professional, you don't want to acknowledge the statistics I posted about rape of women without the ability to say no?

Also, my sister does not see a psychologist or psychiatrist at all. She sees a neurologist for her condition. She has electronic neural implants and other medicines to help her. Most people that lived with her in the group home she was at for a time were the same, they visit doctors and speech and occupational therapists. Their conditions are a lot different than someone with ADHD or Bipolar disorder. Vastly different actually.

No amount of prayer or therapy can fix some conditions, and many do have actual handicaps that get in the way of them living a happy, comfortable life. Or even living. Ignoring the handicap won't help them gain advocacy they need, and funding and money to live off of. Some of these unfortunate people cannot even work or purchase/cook food to live on. Or to do proper hygiene without prompting. Love and support occur, but sometimes the condition impairing them is too much to be overcome. You can't just "cure" everything with a positive attitude.

Thinking so hinders these innocent souls, delegitimizing their need for advocacy, affection, and assistance with their conditions over their whole life.

 

Yeah, a valid opinion. One that has been said a lot in this thread, so I got no counter or immediate response, not without repeating myself. So perhaps I have a better idea for a response.

For one, yes I made a point of saying one of her Alpha, her current one, is a jerk. He is aware of her condition, uses it against her, though, not for sex. To the point that her murdered her previous Alpha in front of her just to ensure he became her new Alpha. So, yeah, jerk.

But what if you were her Alpha? Like, you were walking down the street and you saw her and her Alpha. He has a heart attack, you try to help. He dies and bam, she labels you her next Alpha. It isn't like she has a checklist for you. She doesn't give you her rules. She would likely just start following you, waiting for instructions. How would you react? If you told her to go way, a fair response, you would probably find her sleeping on next to your door the following morning.

Just in case I mislead the situation or phrased it poorly. I obviously don't think anyone that thinks it is rape would consider having sex with her. I just wonder. If you don't know, what would you do? Would you just want to cast her away until she stop coming back? Would you try to help her? Would you perhaps enjoy to some degree her trying to help you? Or any other response you might have.

 

Again, I want to stress how much I can't personally relate to the situation as you can. And sharing details like you have I imagine could be very emotional for you. So thank you for that alone.

But I think there is an argument both ways. So yes, you are right. There are people that need help and shame on anyone who tries to simple say the power of positive thinking will save people all by itself. People do fail, and some people die in the street of cold or hunger because they failed. And that is not okay.

But to argue back. I remember watching a TV program that focused on debunking. It talked about handicaps and even had a handicap man who wrote a book on why the handicap law of I think 1990 was crap and how it hurt people with handicaps. At it core, the premise was sort of. If you call them a victim and give them a hand out. You can inspire them to think of themselves as victims and seek more hand outs. It takes away from the desire to be self independent. That being said. No one is arguing giving people things they need. Rather the goal of helping people, should be, if possible to help them become independent. Not just labeling them victims and taking care of them. Does that make sense?

 

My point was the Alpha's know she does whatever they say and see here around for a god period of time. They can't remain ignorant. And I'm not anyway talking about cases where they didn't know, if there are any, of course you can't blame people for something they didn't know that altered an otherwise fine situation. I'm saying in any open circumstances, if it's with an Alpha, she's not capable of consent. Because she doesn't even begin to think about her own desires as long as they're involved. So it has a marked abusive element. And that's legally rape I think.

 

You do keep bringing this up, but it's not relevant. We're not taking about her current alpha, we're talking about the ones that have had sex with her. This one not having sex with her and still being an ass makes no difference in the rape question, no matter which side of it you stand on.

 

Well, looking up. Not sure why I said it that time. I thought I was answering a question but looking up, it appears I was not.

Yet I would argue on one point. This thread sort of evolved. It hasn't been a black and white/ yes/no thread. And people have asked details about her condition to get more of a basis to judge from.

Some people answered less on rape and more on how to express this idea in a book. Which I think is all fine. If someone next asked me about her current Alpha as an insight into her or just because they were curious. I would be fine with it. This is a topic with underlining serious issues but I think it is fine to chat in a casual manner.

If that makes sense? But you are right, the topic opened on the idea of rape, so the one that isnt't having sex with her is not related by extension. I find that interesting because I know a lot of people would place rape high on the scale of jerkness. Yet, he is her worst Alpha I tink and never did that. I just find that interesting, even if unrelated.

 

I will try to go over each point individually

1. "Sees the world is a completely objective view. Feels that opinions are based on some logical ideology that for some reason she doe not understand." Objectivity does not exist in any one person, no matter how objective we believe we are being. From the second we are born, our minds start getting conditioned depending on our tendencies, environment, and other events such as traumas, social issues (bullying for example) or visa versa, are conditioned via nurturing from the love of our parents, siblings, teachers etc. BUT, that does not mean people see in only black and white. Black and white perspective is not objectivity, quite the opposite actually. It means you see things one way or the other, and not objectively (all possible perspectives at once, and no perspectives at once). Even if a child is born purely to be raised to see the world "objectively", it would be impossible. Their genetics have already determined the type of neural pathways they will have, not to mention predispositions to various things, as well as a type of thought process (think mathematicians versus abstract artists).

"Ideaology that she can't understand." This is pretty standard. Even browsing in this thread, you can see the varied ideologies and opinions we all hold (as a result of all the above factors I mentioned). Just because your character doesn't understand how others formulate their opinions -- or why they have the opinions they have -- isn't a direct indicator that she will see things in "black and white".

2. "As such she personally views herself as inferior, their is a rule, or law of nature around her that has just not been made available to her, yet others make decisions, so they have it." This is her personal image of herself,. We all have a personal image and it varies across the board. Inferiority complex is a common one (quick google search will be more thorough than if I describe it).

3. "She is greatly frustrated when she begins to imagine the concept of subjectivity. To the point of self harm(head banging) if prolonged." I understand what you are trying to convey, but you're actually doing it backwards Self-harming behaviours are often a result of the poor self image you described above. In my personal opinion, she is head banging BECAUSE she sees herself as inferior. This is her self image, and she treats herself how she thinks she deserves to be treated, whether she knows it or not. Head banging is the symptom of this much deeper rooted problem. But not a handicap. Just like how our view of ourselves changes with age, so can our view change with self discovery and learning. In order to change her self harming behaviours, she needs to change how she views herself. This is difficult because it is often lodged deep in the subconscious and takes lots of digging to even realize. So this is actually pure SUBJECTIVITY. In other words, it's not the whole picture, but it's the "I". "I don't understand why I don't understand" in other words, and she struggles with this. This could be perhaps why she can't say no. It's not that she doesn't understand the concept of consent, it's just deep down she may believe she deserves it, even if it hurts. We can be very cruel to ourselves sometimes.

Seems like she is so tied to her Ego (sense of self) and that could be a reason why she self harms, because she doesn't understand why she doesn't understand others. It's the comparison of the SELF vs OTHERS. Or, you could look at it this way, SUBJECTIVE vs OBJECTIVE. She is actually so deeply in her own world, seeing herself in such a distorted light, that I don't believe she could see the world through any other lenses in her current emotional and psychological state.

Also bare in mind that self-harming behaviours can also be a coping mechanism. If your character cannot process certain emotions properly (as a result of not having learned them as a child -- factors vary) then this could be a self-regulating behaviour where emotions are controlled via this self harming. The mind truly is fascinating

4. "I think the conditioned worsened with age. Places like school which were about guiding her supported her condition. To the point no one really noticed she was different. She just copied people, but as she grew up and gained the expectations of becoming a leader or adult herself. Her condition worsened as she clung to anyone for the support she needed."

This makes plenty of sense. We often hide our insecurities, or mental conditions, or opinions, for many reasons: fear, not wanting to be different, afraid we won't fit it, or afraid our opinions will be criticized. Lots of external factors can influence our internal state if we are vulnerable, and by that I mean already have a tendency to sway one way over the other.

If we do not work to improve mental conditionings that harm us, often they will get worse. It's like physical condition. If you are out of shape and don't bother eating better or exercising, your physical shape will stay the same or most likely get worse. It will only improve when we begin working on our bodies. The same goes for the mind, except it is far more complicated.

5. "She actually prefers to be non-verbal. This is because ever since school, she is always looking, studying her environment. She starred at the children's faces. She would read their body language. She became good at that. So when someone says something that conflicts with their body language it confuses her. So she ignores the words in this case."

This could just mean she's very good at reading people, and pays very close attention to detail. If this is the case though, I would explore why she feels very inferior to others. Is it because she can see things others can't? Do people put her down when she disagrees? Make sure that in your story you factor in situations and interactions that support her mental conditions this way, it will help bring this out in your character.

This is also a bit contradictory. If your character is that good at reading people, surely she could sense if someone was manipulating her or lying to her? If she has this deeper understanding of others, it doesn't seem likely she would easily think "he is god, I must get him bread." In my personal opinion, people who are very good at reading body language and other non-verbal cues are less likely to be manipulated or controlled. The simple reason being they can see through that.

6. "Since Alpha is basically god in her mind. If for example he asked her to get bread, she may try and steal the bread. Her mind can't comprehend this idea of him having to earn it. Like she may internally think. "He is god, god wants bread. God will have bread. Anyone that attempts to stop me from giving god bread is a bad person. Bad people should die.""

This again falls under that category of image, though instead of self image, this time it is her understanding of an external person, the Alpha. In order for her to think he is a god, she will have already needed to be very susceptible to manipulation. I say this because in order to have a belief like this, without willingly choosing to believe this, it requires a lot of convincing or manipulation, the degree varies from person to person. If she WANTS to believe he is god, this is another story, and would tie into her own belief system about herself and how a relationship with this "god man" would benefit whatever it is she is subconsciously trying to achieve (could be to harm herself even further).

This also ties into her self image and sense of self. If she feels inferior to others, and believes she isn't worthy, than anything supporting that train of thought will be easy to connect to. We all go through life surrounding ourselves with the people and places we choose, and that's why there is a lot of truth behind the saying "You life is a reflection of you." (Extreme circumstances not included.)


There are many, many factors, but what I would focus on in your story would be the image your MC holds of herself, which, by what you have described about her, is a very, very poor image, to the point where she doesn't understand consent because, maybe, in her life it was never needed. She was used and abused and doesn't know that "no" even exists. BUT, just because she may not know that she has a right to consent or refuse, it doesn't mean she is INCAPABLE of understanding these choices. She was either never exposed to them, or conditioned so extremely to believe it's not necessary or she is at the disposal of others and this is her purpose. It would take a tremendous amount of digging to change since it's been supported throughout her entire life and has been worsening with age, but that does not mean it's permanent. Again, this is purely from a psychological point of view.

There are some contradictions in your character, but it takes time to polish a character this complex. Take your time, focus on one aspect at a time, but most importantly, formulate her backstory. This will make it easier to understand her choices and her thought process. If you have any questions I would be more than happy to help Just send me a private message.

 

We can move it private if you want. Your call. And yeah, obviously a character isn't perfect out the gate. That is why I love discussing them. So you didn't say a condition, so are you instead saying that she just has her own quirks? And you wouldn't label her by condition besides poor self image?

Well, I don't quite think the contridictions you saw are there, rather I didn't explain myself as properly as I could have.

Like, for the concept of the Alpha manipulating her/her good body language detection. The issue here is exactly what you said it might be. She wants to believe he is god. Because if he is god, he is infaliable, or that is her logic. I think it may help to add her actual train of thought to some of these issues or how I currently see them. "I am confused. I don't understand. I hate that I don't understand. All the people around me think different things. Which of them is wrong? Surely they can't all be right. Arg! I hate this. I hate this. I will pick one, he will be right. Then everything will make sense because he will be right."

Does that make sense to you? I see it like, that she can't handle her lack of understanding to such a degree, she attempts to place someone into the center of the universe to which she can use as a way to measure all things. Which is why I said she can abandon her Alpha. If he isn't being confident, he could cause her to doubt him which breaks the illusion she is trying to place on herself.

As for the head banging, you could be right. This one I am torn on. So I am just going to say how I picture her thoughts saying it and let you tell me what you think it is. "Gah. I hate this feeling! I want to know! Why did the lady pick the pink one and not the blue one? I don't understand, my head, it hurts, arg. Make it stop. Please, go away.!" She smashes her head into something. "Ah, what was I thinking, oh better. Yes, bad thoughts, stay away!"

And yeah, I am not actually attempting to say that she doesn't think or doesn't form opinions. She seeks, an Alpha, she doesn't like to speak and a few others could probably be formed. The idea was more that she has a difficult time with opinions because she believes the world is objective. Which is a flawed belief too, but based on it she becomes confused based on her internal imagine of the world just not matching reality. Because things like pink or blue are not objective and because of that they have no answer and since there is no answer she cannot find it and this makes her feel stupid and angry.

Does that make sense?

 

To me, I would have initially said no, it's not rape. I thought this because she wasn't saying no to them, it seemed like she was saying yes, whilst thinking no; but then that depends on her handicap and whether she would be able to consent or not.

Looking into it, I'd say rape, because the definition is penetration into an unwilling other. So if she is unwilling it is rape.

 

Yes it is rape.

 

I've known guys who wouldn't sleep with a girl, not casually anyway, who comes off somewhat, let's say, dim, off her rocker, or otherwise somewhat mentally handicapped. It's difficult to explain, actually, as there's a very specific word in my mother-tongue for these kind of people which describes exactly the type of person I'm thinking of here, but it's someone who's impressionable, easily led, quick to please, and exhibits erratic behavior. I'm not sure if your character would qualify. It's possible, so in that case I'd find it rapey if the guy's/gal's intent was to take advantage of her submissive nature. If, however, s/he were to befriend her, get to know her, support her, and in other ways be there for her as a companion, the sex would seem far less rapey.

I think if I were you, I'd focus on writing the girl. Get to know her, see what kind of decision would make sense to her. Your reader will then judge the situation accordingly. For her, it could be sex. For an outsider, it could be rape, if that makes any sense?

 

I would love to hear the word. Maybe it could be her last name. Or is it a phrase? Maybe one of the words could be a last name? I understand that you said you it doesn't quite translate well. So that is fine. Thanks for your opinion.

 

The word is uuno. It's both a boy's name (as in, it's a given name) as well as a sort-of less offensive, kind of gentle way to say 'dimwit'. There's a strange tradition in my country to use male names as synonyms to words like 'idiot', 'witless' etc.

 

Wow, you're Finnish? I did not know this.

 

Yeah, I am. Props for spelling 'Finnish' correctly. You know, instead of the more common 'Finish.'

 

This is absolutely the most important thing to focus on. It doesn't matter what the subject matter, just write a story that is emotionally honest and has some genuine feeling to it.

Clearly there are bigger issues around this plot point but you aren't obliged to talk about them, just stay focused on their story and what makes sense to them. If their story is good and there's meaning and emotion there just let it be what it is.

You're writing one story featuring two people, not a whole community. Maybe that's a happy story, maybe it's not. Maybe it's ambiguously abusive or just plain squicky but it's their story and however it turns out it doesn't make comment on any other situation. Just writing that story well is enough. Let the reader figure out the rest.

One of my finished projects is about a forty year old woman having a relationship with her sixteen year old adoptive son. When they first sleep together, the first time they have gone beyond a kiss, her gut reaction is 'oh God this is wrong, this is your baby'. But he's lonely and depressed and all he has in the world is her and she just can't say no to him; her baby who needs her. So they sleep together and it's horrific for her, fighting herself to not show him he's hurting her, so at least he'll feel better. There's a lot to unpack there and it's traumatic for both of them but they (eventually) get over it and in the end they are happy together. You can read it that he raped her or that it's just a tragedy with no-one at fault. You can hate him or her or sympathise with them both. It's up to the reader which, just like it's up to them to decide if their relationship is something we should be ok with and if it makes a difference that they are happy or that he was the one who first wanted them to be something romantic. But that's for the reader to think about. The book just tells their story. It's not making a case for or against weird, dark, incestuous relationships, or even for or against weird, traumatic sexual experience. It's just their story.

 

Oh yes. Very true. This thread was never meant to be "should I write this."

I was more searching for opinions to help me gauge how to write this. When things like rape undertones are present, I feel one can never be too carefully. A good story could be ruined by a bad choice of words around a touchy topic.

Though this is making me want to write a story about them!

Here is a trick, which I don't think anyone quite answered.

The only story idea I have currently, features both her and her Alpha as villains. And in the shadows, barely seen villains.

Which makes me clueless on how to bring her to light in such a small window.

I mean, to give context. My current story idea sort of goes like this.

A boy(so for my only story to feature a boy as the main character) stumbles accross a woman being murdered. The murder is being done by a grunt of the Alpha. Preparation for a war. Or getting rid of elites that could be considered troublesome.

The elite in question that is being murdered sort of had suspecions about the possible upcoming war. But she loses and dies, though, before she does. She relays the information to the boy.

The boy is a weak character, his journy is mainly just finding the elites friends and relaying the information. The Alpha or big bad is unaware that he even knows this. Currently the Alpha just seeks the equipment that the dead woman gave to him. So, being low on the to-do list. The grunts that were chasing him were far from elites.

Eventually he reaches the friends passes the message and the war begins. It wouldn't be until this point or further that the Alpha or this girl is even seen. Because she is his body guard and he is a dark master commander.

So how to show her right, when she has such little screen time? lol

This thread was inspired by me thinking of writing how she met her Alpha. Which is more personal between them, but that was just a random writing excersice. I can't see how that scene would fit into the above plot.

Any thoughts? lol Thanks for your interest.

 

That's certainly something tricky. A crash course in her character is not easily done, but doable. The question really is how you want all this to read. Is it demonstrating the monstrosity of her masters? Just setting the scene for the world they live in? Is this a turning point for her character or does she believe it's just how things work? Does she know what a normal healthy relationship is? Do her masters care about her at all?

Answering some of these will get to the core of the scene I think. If the world she's from is like Fahrenheit 451 where sleeping with them is what the society thinks is right then she probably wouldn't think much of it. In that world casual group sex is what they believe is normal and natural and that determines a lot about how they feel.

This is all stuff you can write very economically, just a few lines of description as she reacts to these guys. Just by saying 'grudgingly' or 'happily' you can communicate a lot. One makes her a victim, the other a happy member of a weird society. All of this plays into consent; if she doesn't know what can say no then she might be sanguine about it all. If she wants to say no but can't and ha to fight her nature then she might be angry or bury the feelings. Again, just a hint will be enough. If she hangs her head and quietly does what she's told that says everything. Assuming you put some focus on her reaction, decompress the moment and let it be expressive it can tell you a lot about her reaction.

 

Well the rape thing won't be a factor there. Because that Alpha never tries to have sex with her. He sees her like a hammer. A tool with an exact purpose that is good for nothing else but is so good at the one function it is worth keeping.

The rape concept is only a concern if I dived into her history. Because while I think it is fair that the dark master Alpha doesn't have with her. It seems like a stretch to say no one has ever had sex with her. So I became curious the mine field I was dancing around in the event I wrote a story about her backstory. Which I am writing now and I will try and post later this week in the workshop. D:

 

I only read the original post but I want to comment because it actually made me relate. I have a specific learning difficulty, which unlike learning disabilities do not affect intelligence. It´s called dyspraxia and its classed as a disability. It is complicated but I have a university degree but I am literally so clumsy and forgetful that Dr´s have a name for it.

I realised recently that I dont say no, granted I have never been put in a situation where sex and consent becomes an issue. So far it is only been things like petsitting and switching shifts and dinner with dad.

When it comes to people with disabilities especially if they are invisible or affect intellect you have to understand that society constantly tells us that we are an inadequate burden with little value. It is really hard to champion yourself, stay confident and believe that we deserve better.

When someone offers any sort of validation and admiration to us it is really hard to say no. We jump on any opportunity to feel loved and valued.

I have personally known girls who have had a hard time and experienced sexual violence and borderline sexual violence. I have also worked as a carer for the disabled and I know my client had been targeted because of her/his disability and been sexually assaulted many times, which the police ignored. Sexual violence against the disabled, especially mentally disabled is a really huge issue that is ignored.

However there is a problem with consent and disability. People with mental disabilities have a human right to a family life, we like to think of them as eternal children but they are not. They can and have a right to sexual and romantic relationships, to marriage and children.

When I talk about borderline sexual violence that´s something that I would refer to as when consent is given by a person who is unable to give it. When that person for example is a child that is obvious, thats sexual violence. If I went out and met a person who asked me for sex and I said yes because my self-esteem is broken due to bad childhood and disability that isnt rape. UNLESS that person knows my weakness and exploits that on purpose, that is sexual violence and exploitation.

However if somebody would tell me that I am incapable to give consent because I am disabled I would be furious. That is discrimination.

It is difficult especially with invisible disabilities to know where that line is. When you meet a person you have no idea what is going on inside a persons head. when a person gives consent you never know why they do it.

People with cognitive disabilities are vulnerable and need extra protection and are vulnerable to sexual violence however most are not completely incapable of forming romantic relationships and giving consent.

 

It's not about all disabilities. It's about a specific fictional disorder, not really a disability despite the original terms, that interferes directly and strongly with consent. She's not pushed or vulnerable in mentality. She's literally doing almost anything these specific people ask. If they say; "let me fuck you" she does it without thinking about her own desires. That's not consent.

 

For one. Thank you for the heart felt message. Anyone who shares a personal story here has my up most respect.

And yeah, it is a complicated issue, which is why the thread is probably still going a month later. lol.

Also, many of your points have been brought up but all the same your post says it in a very well spoken way. So thank you.

Funny enough, because of how complicated it is. I am still sort of on the fence, but I think you put it very well the best "Not rape argument." Which simply is, well she is not an eternal child. If we are saying she can't consent to sex period. Then we are saying she that ethically she cannot have children the traditional way or a family or a husband(or wife). And it seems mean to say as a person she is simply not allowed to have these things.

Though, I don't think anyone is arguing that her situation can't be taken advantage of. Obviously she is at a higher risk and anyone that intentionally takes advantage of that is a jerk!

I think this is where someone else said it best. Saying there are really two sides here.

Her side

Societies side.

And that while she may not see it as rape, society might but it is okay for the two to disagree.

Does that make sense?

Again, thank you for the well spoken post.

 

She could have a family. With a guy who isn't an Alpha. As long as the condition applies, it's not consent. But she's fine otherwise.

 

But she won't be with someone that isn't her Alpha unless her Alpha directed it.

Which negates your logic here.

That is the point. She can't be cured, she can't get around it and she can't fix it. So your saying it is not fine. Because she can't fix it, and as such she is being raped if she wanted these things because she can't consent.

Again, I really am on the fence. Maybe I am leaning towards not rape now. Mainly because in a sense, she isn't a victim. Her situation is unique but to tell someone who functions differently than you that they are invalid or must be the eternal child you may see them as, that seems like you are placing her as a victim. Yes her condition does such and it can lead her to being victimized, but that is a case by case concept. You can't say she is always the victim because she can't consent. Or are you trying to say that?

 

I'm saying she can't consent and all that comes with that. Whether you consider her a victim is irrelavant. Whether she's an "eternal child" is poetry. Whether she is "invalid" is not my argument. She's not consenting. That's all I'm saying. Beat the hell out of strawmen all you want, that's not my argument.