A unique question I kind of feel bad about to ask. (Mature Content)

Okay. if you want people taking your implications into account perhaps you could be more clear or post longer arguments. I mean your previous argument was 26 words. I mean, if I only directly replied to the exact words you said then I would have not had enough to even post really. I mean there is no reason this thread should reach more pages by having 10 word responses. Especially repetive ones. You have said multiple times that you don't think she can consent. Then you said she can have sex. Care to explain yourself?

And lets straighten it out.

1. You are affirming that she is being raped if she has sex based on her not being able to consent. Yes or no?

2. Are you affirming that not all rape victims are well actual victims? I mean how is victim irrelavant in the discussion about if she is a rape victim?

Eternal child is a term the previous poster used to summarize the idea that people that are saying she is being raped(you are in that category, yes?) are making an error and thinking of her as someone who can never be self independant because they always need to be cared for. The term was not being used as poetry. The term was being used to summarize the concept in fewer words. Was that not clear before?

Okay, then do you have a position. It sounds like you are saying is not valid because she doesn't fit social norms. If you feel this is not your argument, I would love to hear your argument.

Perhaps if you don't want people to beat the wrong argument you could present your argument better? Or stop repeating yourself? I don't mean to imply you can't post. I made a point of mentinioned how Artic had just restated other peoples arguments. But she didn't read the entire thread(not surprising when it is 7 pages long.) but she also stated the arguments differently and well.

This post isn't really any different than

or

or

Heck, even there you say you don't know how to say it better, but you have posted basically the same argument 3 more times since then. If you have something else to add. Please add it. But if you are just repeating yourself, all you are doing is boasting the post count and detract people from reading more of the posts that are different.

Sorry if I seem rude, but you practically reply to everyone he with almost the same comment.

 

I meant it's an unnecessary level of emotion and metaphor. It's a flowery term in a argument about clinical terms. Is he capable of consent? If not, it's not legal to make sexual interaction: harassment, molestation, rape.

 

Thank you for the detailed 38 word reply.

 

OK, I've been following this thread for some time, this character of yours really intrigues me @GuardianWynn , her unusual disorder could make for interesting stories. I don't know if you still looking for more answers since this thread is already 8 pages long, but since I'm really interested in this topic and your character I thought I offer my view as well.

For me her situation falls into somewhat of a grey area regarding consent. From what I gather she is perfectly aware of what she's doing, she is not out of touch with reality and is not forced to submit and serve these alphas ( at least not externally). She chooses to serve her alphas because her disorder makes independent thoughts and opinions unbearable to her, so she let's her alpha do the thinking and she just follows his orders. she judges right and wrong according to her alphas wishes, what her alpha wants and desires would be the right thing to do in her opinion.
So if her alpha wants to have sex with her she does it because that's the right thing to do, as such the sex won't be against her will, even if her willingness is a result of a twisted logic.

Also, I don't think her disorder prevents her from understanding the concept of consent. She knows what consent means and she IS giving consent to her alpha to have sex with her because she is willing to do so without anyone forcing her.

The only problem is that her willingness to consent comes from her disorder. Since her disorder prevents her from having independent thoughts, it becomes hard to validate her consent. Yet she consents, and is aware that she's consenting and understands the concept.

To conclude, I don't consider having sexual relations with her to be rape but it is still from from an ideal situation. I mean if she existed in real life I wouldn't have sex with her but would not call anyone who does rapist either.

Sorry this post got so long, hope I helped.

 

I know, this thread has gotten long! It just won't die! Not that such is a bad thing. I am always eager to a person's opinion.

Funny enough, your post is well exactly my thoughts. Seriously, I could copy paste your post in place of mine and it would feel valid. lol

It is interesting to see the clash. I guess most of the people that view it as rape abandoned the thread. Shame, it started as seriously on the rape side, but then as non-rape arguments started popping up, most of them disappeared. (To any that feel they have keep up with the later pages on the rape side of the argument. I said most not all. lol)

I find it interesting that you find her interesting. I am currently writing a short story about her. I plan to post it in the workshop. If she interests you. Would you like me to link it to you when I am done? Funny enough, you may have read about her Alpha already without realizing it. Her Alpha was in my short story concept that you won. At least I think you won. My memory is nothing to bet on. lol

 

I would really love to read the short story you're writing about her, can't wait! I don't know what you mean by linking it to me but yes please do so. I find her really fascinating, you know, her unique condition can make cool, morally ambiguous stories.
I'm definitely gonna check out the short story you entered into the contest so I can get to know her alpha better. I won the last contest, the one with the theme 'birth', is that the contest you entered your story in?

 

Oh by link I mean when I create a thread. I will send you a link to the thread so you can find it easier.

And yes. The Birth Contest is he story that features her Alpha. Funny enough, this girl would have been in that story from a structure stand point. As in she was just off screen waiting. For the context there was no reason to introduce into it, but she would have been there.

I hope you enjoy and thank you for your interest. Also congrats on winning the contest.

 

Thanks! I just reread your story, first of all great story . I liked the guy, ruthless yet polite and charming, my kind of villain! I hope both him and the girl get enough 'screen' time in the main story, otherwise it would be a shame. Both are interesting and complex in their own way.

 

I haven't even started the main story to that. Actually that is because it is my third main story.

Basically if you read my writing workshop entry. You would read about a girl named Valorie. Age 20. Main story 1.

These guys, Ivy, the Alpha and this girl are villains in my story 3. Which is set about 50+ years later. To the point that even a seventy year old Valorie would make an appearance(mostly, there is a hole main story two in which Valorie could die in. lol). I am a huge plotter and have a fairly expansive universe. This provides a good and bad take here.

See. On one hand. The Alpha is a "from the shadows" kind of bad guy. So he doesn't currently have a lot of screen time. I answered this once already in the thread. So I will quote myself.

But at the same time. This story is so far away. There is plenty of ways to maybe increase his screen time.

 

OK, question, does that war happen at the very end of the story? If so maybe you can have your protagonist(s) have an encounter with the girl or the alpha at some earlier point? Maybe the alpha sends her to assassinate one of the good guys and she gets captured and that's how the good guys learn about her situation with the alpha.

Like you said there are lots of ways to give them more screen time, you gotta go with what feels right to you and what makes the most sense storywise. I'm sorry that I can't give you more specific and detailed advice but given my limited knowledge of your story and the fact that ultimately you know your story better than anyone else, I think this is the best advice.

Also it would be interesting if in the war one of the good guys managed to kill the alpha and she chose him as her new alpha (that is if you plan to kill the alpha at all).

by the way does she ever choose women as her alphas or is it only ever men? I know this is not relevant to your exact issue but I just couldn't help wondering

 

Well, the girl of this thread. Her name is Sky. I was going to hold that back, but since I plan to post a story about her. No use now. Well, think about that. Sky is bad ass! She wouldn't fail, and even if she did. She can't be captured. Literally, no force in my universe can hold her down like that. lol

I think the trick is that in my head or maybe even in our head if you agree, I picture war for a story more like a battle. A war can be a large event though. If the story spammed multiple books. Book 1 could be the set up and the following up books could be the about the war and as such focus a lot more time on him and her.

Seriously though, Sky is damn powerful! You read the story with Ivy and the guy she serves. So powerful shouldn't be very surprising.

Oh and yeah, a woman can be her Alpha. Her Alpha is anyone she asserts is better than herself by being able to think better. So she had girl Alphas.

Yeah, so there is issues to solve, but like I said. There is 2 main stories before I even get that far. So plenty of time to sort stuff. I hope I haven't teased you too much with a story that will take forever to be made?

 

Write more than you need or could fit, then pick ones that show diversity in who the character is. Maybe one aspect of her shows up more than others. Maybe she has scenes that don't tell you much. But give here at least one scene for every aspect you want to show.

 

Since this hit 8 pages. I figured, enough talk about her. Time to see her. I wrote an entry and submitted it to the work shop for you.

https://www.writingforums.org/threads/the-order-recruiting-the-sapphire-adult-themes-mature-content.144818/

I am going to tag people I think may find this interesting that I don't think are still following the thread. Since they might not see it otherwise.

@AlcoholicWolf
@LinnyV
@ChickenFreak
@Nicoel
@NeighborVoid
@Feo Takahari
@izzybot
@BoddaGetta
@Fernando.C

Also one random one
@GingerCoffee
If you are wondering Ginger, I tagged you because I also thought you might like this. For a different reason. Well, you read about the Emerald. I thought you might like the Sapphire. No pressure either way. Tagging in this sense was just meant to show you. If you aren't interested. That is fine. I told ya there was plenty to discuss in relation to the Emerald. lol

 

I guess my first question would be "is the alpha aware that she can not deny him?" If the answer is yes then he become culpable for the act henceforth, the act is rape. If he is unaware and she is unaware, I am not certain it would be considered rape. A lack of inhibition on her part and a lack of research concerning consent on his part.

 

But the real question, is more about her. I mean, it seems to easy otherwise. He is a jerk then rape, not a jerk not rape?

I mean, if I have understood it accurately. some people have argued that she just can't give consent. Period. Meaning by that, she can't or shouldn't ever have sex. Because any sex is rape because she can't consent. Even if it were a nice guy unaware of her condition. That may sound extreme, and it is countered by others saying it isn't rape because she is picking the Alpha's and to say she can't have sex is even more insulting to her as a person. It is a tricky position that really hinges on her. Because whether they knew or not. Her Alpha's don't inflict her with the condition. She did it to herself. Does that make sense?

 

So now she choose to have the condition? And who are you referencing with the idea of even with someone unaware? I don't know anyone on the rape side who didn't mention some kind of criteria based on exploiting her condition. And a lot of people on the rape side have talked exclusively about Alphas, the idea of others was brought up later by the counter-argument after most of us left for whatever reason. I think maybe they felt they'd argued it all they could and it wasn't working? I've certainly felt like that at times here.

 

I can quote them if you need them. Many people said, simply "she can't say no, so she can't say yes" heck haven't you even had a moment of saying that? No, I didn't say she choose her condition. I said she choose her Alpha, which she did(well, except maybe that one time in which I posted the story. Technically even then she did pick him, or better yet, accepted him as the role.)

Also, the idea is if someone was unaware of her condition that they are not trying to take advantage of her. Which makes it seem less rape-ish to people. But if your argument is she can't consent, then she can't have sex. I doesn't mater if they are aware or not.

Also, what thread did you read? The first major argument for it not being rape heavily talked about how she is starting the relationship. And how she wants the relationship and how they thought give and take was fair, since she is demanding things or taking, it is only fair for her to give other things back. his argument has like no baring on who the Alpha was.

 

Well, if they are not her Alpha, there's no problem. And if they are and don't know about her, it's excusable for them to think she's consenting because she seems like it. And I wouldn't call something compulsive "choosing". She's not really in charge of the Alpha thing. Her condition produces and governs the idea. It comes from criteria that she didn't exactly design herself, right? It's kind of always been there as a notion, I thought. That's what it seemed like you said near the beginning of this thread. When you said she was born with it, that's what I remember.

 

Well, for one, she never not has an Alpha. Think of the short story. She reassigned herself to a new alpha within a couple minutes. So, she is never without an Alpha.


And yeah true, she didn't break her brain on purpose. But what I meant is it is her issue. Not brainwashing by the other party.

 

Who cares where it's from? If she's not in a proper mind about consent, she's not making a very sane decision. She's compulsive. To repeat earlier comparisons, it's like being drunk when having sex or an insanity plea for murder.

 

This is why I was saying you are like calling her invalid. I mean, think about.

She can't be fixed.

So, what does she do? Your saying she can't consent. So you saying she can't have sex. Right? Have I skipped a step? Or your saying she is like constantly drunk? Or not able to care for herself?

I mean, I get that her idea isn't ideal to a real relationship. But where is the line. She can't be fixed. So isn't it wrong to say that because she can't be fixed, she can't have sex?

 

She can. Of course she can. With a guy who isn't her Alpha. If she met a guy she genuinely emotionally loves, someone she can trust who does actually care for her, she could have a family and everything. But the Alpha thing is corrupt relationship. So while she can do it, I wouldn't be okay with Alpha for doing it. It's the Alpha's who are the problem. She doesn't know any better.

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I continue to hang up on whether the alpha knew about it. I see a lot of content stating that she can not consent and I suppose this also means that she can not object? Considering that possibly this scenario implies that she has imprinted upon an alpha of sorts and has thus become as one/mated with the alpha, I think that calling it rape is harsh. But there is a strong possibility that I don't understand some other underlying dynamic here.

 

Earlier on, in the opening post and others, the idea that she never really thinks to say "no" was mentioned. She doesn't really consider it. That's why her consent isn't consent, in my opinion. She's blindly obedient based on a medical condition. That blind obedience is not consent even if it looks like it. Or at least, that's what I'm saying. Maybe other people on my side would choose different wording and whatnot. Slightly different conception. But essentially that's the argument.

 

LOL

You know, this reminds me of a moment, where the Catholic Church said that sex between gay people is fine but sex between unmarried people is not fine and gay people aren't allowed to marry.

The gay community responded by saying that is like being a saying it is okay to be a bird as long as you don't fly.

She doesn't have relationships without an Alpha. At all. Ever. So saying, yeah, she can have a relationship as long as they aren't Alphas. That isn't how she works. She always has an Alpha and if she isn't then she is seeking a new Alpha.

Well, to try and catch you up with few words. Her dynamic is not unlike a dogs-pack dynamic. She views herself as an underling or weaker member. She seeks someone to support her and in return offers her loyalty absolutely. So in the same way, a weaker pup of a pack will not oppose an Alpha, is the same way she won't. The trick is that she is unique in this sense. Humans don't have Alpha pack social dynamics in the same way. Someone related her to being like a submissive. She doesn't want to think or to pick. So she is picking someone who will do that for her and in exchange she will follow them without question.

I wrote a short story on her in the writers workshop if it helps. I posted the link to it at post 188 oh crap this thread got long. lol.

So the basic idea briefly is that she was a human with head trauma that views herself as not able to function without help and thus seeks help. Does that make sense?