Abortion

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Frost, Dec 14, 2007.

  1. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    exactly, cog!... only the individual pregnant female has any right to decide what to do... no group of any kind has the right to decide it for her...

    read what i said again, torana... i did not say it leads to child abuse, but that it IS child abuse!
     
  2. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

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    Emotions, sure. They can feel happiness or sadness, like or dislike. But that's about it with any animal. Can they feel advanced emotions like love or hate? No. Can they have morality? No.



    It would be fair for the child, yes. To terminate the pregnancy would be the ultimate example of being unfair. What you're presenting here is more or less the worst argument for abortion; you're saying that because there might be un-ideal circumstances, we should deny the chance for the child to live. We don't know for sure the child won't have "good enough" circumstances. Moreover, who's to determine what situations are appropriate of having a child?

    That's sort of the issue. :p

    Do you have anything to back this up?

    I'd say they have plenty of business it in. It takes two to make a child, thus it isn't the women's child alone. The man should have a say in the individual cases. Moreover, it's an ethical/moral issue. If it's wrong to abort a child and women don't see that, it's man's responsibility, in my opinion, to step up. Just because an issue only involves you indirectly doesn't mean you can't get involved if you have a moral view on the issue. Take Hitler, for example. Just because Hitler's murdering people left and right doesn't mean that the rest of the world doesn't have the right or responsibility to stop him (no offensive intended by the use of Hitler, I just needed an example to illustrate my point).
     
  3. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

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    So you're saying that if a woman brings a child into a family where there's poverty, drug use, abuse, etc. the woman is actually abusing her child? Wouldn't killing the unborn child be more abusive?
     
  4. adamant

    adamant Contributor Contributor

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    I believe she meant that a parent forcing their pregnant daughter to keep the child would a form of abuse on their part.
     
  5. Banzai

    Banzai One-time Mod, but on the road to recovery Contributor

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    A parent forcing their pregnant daughter to abort a child would also be child abuse.
     
  6. adamant

    adamant Contributor Contributor

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    I believe the point was that it's no one's choice but that of the mother.
     
  7. Bluemouth

    Bluemouth Contributor Contributor

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    But they can. Gorillas feel love and hate and do have concepts of morality. It's been proven - Steve Jones, geneticist at the University of London. It's commonly observed in nature and zoo settings, as well. Gorillas even share approximately 98% of the same DNA sequences as humans.

    Other animals I agree with your point.


    Killing a newborn baby is murder. Cutting the life support of a 'humanoid' is too real for my liking. Anything before then and abortion is up to the decision of the mother (like people have said in this thread).

    I don't know what you mean by the pain issue, either? I thought before you said a developing fetus can feel pain early on in a pregnancy, but now you seem to be saying that doesn't matter? In regards to the newborn example you used - they may not be able to feel pain or think for themselves, but they're alive and out of the womb so it's murder.
     
  8. Kit

    Kit Contributor Contributor

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    I think it would be down to them. Whilst I don't necessairily agree with abortion, it would be their own choice.

    To be fair, if measures had been taken but had failed and they did not feel that they could support a child then it would be their choice to have an abortion, and they would not have been "irresponsible". However, they would still - as I see it - be denying a child the chance of life...

    I think to go that far would be pathetic. Afterall, at that point a child has not been conceived and thus it isn't murder.

    I actually disagree with that. What about the father, should he not be involved? Whilst he may not carry the child to the point of birth, the child is a part of him aswell. If I were to be the father of a child, I would not be happy if the woman aborted without discussing it with me, or against my choice.

    What do other people think? What if one half of a couple wanted to keep the child and the other did not?
     
  9. Torana

    Torana Contributor Contributor

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    I know a couple taht were in that predicament and now the father has the little girl and the mother is who knows where. It is amazing how many young men are now saying that they will take on the child after it is born so its life is not ended.

    I also know a guy who is taking his ex to court for terminating his child. I think that both parents of the unborn child should have a choice. THere are many options available though other than abortion.
     
  10. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    adamant... thanks for 'getting it' and setting the record straight on what i posted...

    it's just an extrapolation of the claim of many that the very second sperm and ovum come together, a life exists... and to tell a woman what to do with her bodily functions is just as wrong...

    certainly not if he wasn't part of an actual decision to have a child!... when pregnancy is the result of rape or incest or even just casual sex, the sperm donor is not a 'father' in the societal sense of the word and should have no say whatever in the woman's decision to abort or carry to term...

    even if they're a couple in a committed relationship and decided together that the woman would get pregnant, it still has to be only the woman's decision to complete the process, though i can see that the guy would have the right to at least make his wishes known... but in the end, only the one who has to carry the result inside her own body and undergo the substantial discomfort, pain and health/life-risk of childbirth has the right to decide to go through with it or not...

    tough... when you guys have babies, then you can make those decisions...

    it's not a matter of 'keeping the child' but of only one of them continuing to carry it inside her body and having to go through the discomfort, pain, risk of pregnancy and childbirth... ditto my last comment above...

    would you want your girlfriend/wife or anyone else to decide what you can do with your body?
     
  11. Klee

    Klee New Member

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    I see inappropriate situations were the parent's shouldn't have a child everyday. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there or that they're few.

    I don't see how it's being punished by putting it out of the miserable life it will most probably have. It would be more of a punishment to force him to live under such conditions.

    Kids with malformations are not happy, society is cruel and they will be ostracized by their peers through-out their lives, now add a dysfunctional family, who's being cruel here.

    Call me cruel, but I do stand by that belief. Nowadays everybody wants to live forever, but that's just not possible, you can't treat death like a disease. But that's another argument altogether, so let's just agree to disagree.
     
  12. Cicero

    Cicero Banned

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    THIS. IS. SPARTA!!


     
    1 person likes this.
  13. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

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    I find it absurdly hard to believe that a gorilla can feel hate or love. Like and dislike, yes, but beyond that? I find that ridiculously far-fetched. And morality? How? Perhaps you could provide me with a link to this study.

    My child's body/life, you mean?

    I'm not saying there aren't situations in which having a child would be inappropriate - there are. I see them daily as well. I'm saying that just because the situation is inappropriate or difficult doesn't mean the child should be aborted. You totally missed my point. The child potentially has a life outside of living with his parents and in these unfortunate circumstances. By aborting the child you're saying, "I judged your society and deemed it inappropriate for you to exist. While you might have had a successful, fulfilling life, I, rather than you, decided you'd rather be dead than deal with your sucky life like the hundreds of thousands of other people in this world. You were lucky - I did you a favor."

    You have to realize how incorrect that sounds. If the child's going to have a sucky life, let them decide it's not worth living.

    Sadly, it would appear so. King [SIZE=-1]Leonidas would be proud.[/SIZE]
     
  14. Leaka

    Leaka Creative Mettle

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    Personally, I don't believe in abortion. Its not thats it murder its just not right. If you don't want the child find an alternate way of getting rid of it.
    Maybe by giving it to another woman who wants a child. Or even raise the child inside of you to give it some woman who can't have children.
    It would be so much better instead of abortion. A child should get a chance to live.
     
  15. Hulk

    Hulk Banned

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    Of course. Abortion shouldn't be practised.
     
  16. Klee

    Klee New Member

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    What I'm saying is, people are starting to live beyond the regular life expectation, some might argue that it's evolution, but the world is quickly becoming a world of elderly people, some of which are too senile to do something productive, they need constant care from they family, some end up in expensive hospitals hooked up to various machines which cost a lot of money to the family and is also mentally and emotionally exhausting.

    If you can't breath because you're too old, I think that's nature's way of saying "You're time is up", it's nature, otherwise we'd never grow old and the world would overpopulate, which is exactly what's happening right now.

    But this a completely different argument from the OP so I'm gonna stop now.
     
  17. shadow tiger x

    shadow tiger x New Member

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    I myself don't really beeave in abortions but i have been there and done that myself and yes in a way i regreted it but it was the right thing to do at the time. I was only a young teen 15 to be exact and was only really just starting my first real relationship that really ment something and i was silly well we both were really as we didn't use anything to prevent it. We were together for 4 months and he was 20 and myself as i said 15 and we both had not yet lived and were not ready to start a family so off to the abortion clinic we went i had to have permission from my doctor and mother and ofcourse my mother was no worries on the matter as she said it is the best thing so did my boyfriends mother and my boyfriend himself i was still um and arrrring about it though.

    I had the abortion when i was only 7 weeks pregnant and YES i was a bit upset over it and i ended up wanting my baby back but in the end it was the right thing to do as i am alot older now and have lived a bit as i am now 6 months off of being 23 and i have a beautiful 11 month old son who lights up my day every day i wake up to his smile looking at me.

    I guess i was forced into the abortion a bit but now i realise it was for the best and if i had had that baby i would have been a teen mother, I look at all the teen mothers around town and i really do feel sorry for what they are doing at such a young age but then i also think that if they did the right thing and used the protection that is out there and were careful about it they would not be in the prodictiment they are in now.

    Also the protection that is out there is not 100% it is only 99% so really you still have that chance of STD'S and falling pregnant and yet another is for the woman that can't use any form of protection like me it does not work at all.

    Well there is my life story and what i went through when i was only a teen. I know i was silly and yet i am now happy have my son and all his cute smiles that light up my day.
     
  18. Torana

    Torana Contributor Contributor

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    Yes but also a lot of teen mothers are doign a fabulous job and they don't want your sympathy. They are happy with their lives the way they are. Not all see it as an end to their lives.

    When I fell pregnant with my son I was told keeping him would be ruining my life by my sister and her boyfriend, they had two kids theselves. And by most of my friends. I've never forgiven them for that. I was 20 when I has Mason. My sisters both younger when they had their first. I never once saw it as ruining my life.

    THey weren't planned, but they were wanted by me. I was petrified but not once did I ever want to terminate. My ex did. I was being pressured into it from all corners. All except my parents. They didn't want me to do it at all. I stood up for my rights and I stand by anyone who is in the same predicament.

    Becoming a mother or father is not ruining your life. It is creating a new life, giving you the most amazing gift of all. Sorry Shadow, but I don't feel sorry for teen mothers at all. I applaud them for being able to manage. Being a parent is not easy no matter what age and to be able to raise a child, to bring it into this world is a really brave and noble thing. The most amazing thing you could ever go through in life. Words can never explain.
     
  19. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    no, dan... i meant as a guy, would you want what you do with your own body to be decided by others?... because that's what all who want to make abortion decisions are doing, if they're not the one who's pregnant... and i doubt that any of them would willingly and happily give up that right to anyone else...
     
  20. Bluemouth

    Bluemouth Contributor Contributor

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    While not by Steve Jones, as I previously thought, the study continues to take place.

    The book of the first nine years has also been published.

    Edit: I've decided to take out the key points:

    I honestly don't know what else to say with this ...

    To me, a baby outside the womb is human, while a fetus inside the womb is a developing human. What classifies the difference is the ability of a newborn baby to show emotion and interact with its surroundings. This is not possible with a developing fetus. Look, this basically helps sum up some of my points:

     
  21. Torana

    Torana Contributor Contributor

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    An unborn child can hear its parents voice and can tell when you are in the light as well. It can feel when there is pressure on the abdomen also. So how can it not be human? Fair enough it can't do all these things in the early stages, but later on in the pregnancy it can.
     
  22. Cicero

    Cicero Banned

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    Does hearing our parents voice and sensing when we are in light make us human?
     
  23. adamant

    adamant Contributor Contributor

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    I thought this was on a similar note because it can lead to abortion, so I'll ponder aloud here.

    What is the incentive for impoverished people to have (multiple) children? To me, it does not make sense when someone, who can hardly provide for their own needs, creates such a large burden. It seems like playing the lottery, hoping that you can find some way of affording it all - and gambling with the welfare of your child doesn't seem right to me.
     
  24. SeaBreeze

    SeaBreeze Banned

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    Some idiodic people have children for the welfare money. In Australia when you give birth, the government gives you about 4000 bucks, not sure if that is the right amount, but do you see that it's not the kids, it's the money that some people are after.
     
  25. ILTBY

    ILTBY Contributor Contributor

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    They're talking about raising it to $10000.

    There's also talks of people being charged for having more than two children - $5000 per children because they're worried about over-population. Sort of like China's one-child policy, but the money would go to the environment.
     

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