Abortion

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Frost, Dec 14, 2007.

  1. Bluemouth

    Bluemouth Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Sure there is. ;)

    I like the way you dot point your arguments - it gives them a stronger emphasis.
     
  2. adamant

    adamant Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    The Comatorium
    • How do bullets points make an argument stronger?
    • While the presentation is important, isn't content vastly more imperative?
     
  3. Torana

    Torana Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    9,639
    Likes Received:
    131
    Then they should keep their legs shut and not engage in an intimate relationship.
     
  4. Bluemouth

    Bluemouth Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Yes, but it's just personal preference to have somebody 'lecture' me in a way (even though the points aren't directed my way). It just gives off the vibe the person definitely knows what they're talking about.

    Or at least I think it does. :rolleyes:
     
  5. adamant

    adamant Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    32
    Location:
    The Comatorium
    • Hold 'Alt' and, on the number pad, press '0149'
    • The above addresses PC's
     
  6. The Albatross

    The Albatross New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2007
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Florida
    Abortion: the most talked about topic in politics other than illegal immigration and Bush...

    Personally, I believe abortion should be a personal choice; also, I believe if someone is going to take a pro-life stance, then men can't partake or shouldn't partake.

    That's how I see it, and I'm a guy.
     
  7. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    response to kit's arguments:

    ...sorry, kit, but that's kinda silly, since i used a plural there... unless you are more than one person, it's clear to anyone else that i meant 'guys' in general [as in all males]... and, since i hadn't seen your post where you explain that you are not a 'guy' when i wrote that, i was just including you in the mix...

    ...and i fail to see why you would assume [wrongly] that i 'act' as if my opinion is the 'only opinion to have' any more than you do...

    ...probably never, which was the point of my comment... that's called 'irony' or 'sarcasm'...

    ...as i had no idea you were not a guy, that question was addressed to you as if you were one... and what if i did ask you a question?... that still does not make my comment about ALL males refer only to you, does it?... unless, as i noted above, you were more than one guy... ;-)

    ...how can that be disagreeing with what you said?... see what you followed that with:

    ...that's exactly what i was saying!...

    ...yup!... but i'm not arguing with you over your expressing that opinion... nor would i, as we're all entitled to think whatever we do... arguing the issue is not a personal argument and shouldn't be brought down to that level, if the forum is to remain a friendly place to air our views...

    ...i'm sorry i didn't notice your post stating you are not a 'guy' but my comments still stand re all the 'guys' and my question to you should've been seen as a rhetorical 'if you were' one...

    love and hugs, maia
     
  8. SeaBreeze

    SeaBreeze Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    At the bar
    No, not let them decide, it's more about helping to make the right choice for the woman/girl that is pregnant. Having doctors and counsillers there to help her. I mean, if it's illegal but there is sufficiant reason for the pregnancy to be terminated, then put it through the courts. If the conception was violent and or there are severe medical disabilities or the parents cannot financially support the child and give it a decent education etc, then the case of abortion can be granted.

    I know, not a great idea, but I think abortion should be allowed for those specific reasons. Not as an oops I'm pregant, thats ok, I will just abort it. For those girls that use abortion as contraception, then they should be made to raise the child (WITH support) Just my way of thinking it.

    So - conception is violent, severe medical reasons including the child being severely disabled, inability to raise the child and support it fully then I would agree with abortion.

    Those that choose abortion as an easy way out and DON'T give a rats, abortion used as contraception etc- Then I do not agree.
     
  9. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 19, 2007
    Messages:
    36,161
    Likes Received:
    2,827
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    Then you are imposing your values on them, punishing them for not living to your standards.
     
  10. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    yup!... good point, cog... and that's the root of the whole issue... the inherent wrongness [evil] of the many deciding for the individual, the most intensely personal of all things... if people wouldn't allow their government or any churchfolk to tell them whether or not they can take a dump or a pee, then they can't tell any female what to do with her body's contents, either!
     
  11. Lord Midol

    Lord Midol New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    People have the right to do whatever they want with their own bodies.

    That said, I am opposed to third trimester abortions.

    Ohhh, and on this subject, since I believe that its a womens choice to terminate or keep then the man should also have some choice. Since he can not demand that she terminates a bundle of cells in her body then he should have the choice to effectively "abort" from his roll as a father (financially). This could be done via an application to the courts before the third trimester (as I don't believe in abortion past this).

    If a female has the right to abort then the male should also have the right to cease contact. To support a womens right to have an abortion but to then demand that the male must take care of said child and support it against his will is incredibly hypocritical and one sided.
     
  12. Daniel

    Daniel I'm sure you've heard the rumors Founder Staff

    Joined:
    May 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,815
    Likes Received:
    696
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    It's not about giving up the right to someone else. It's more about doing what is morally right. If an unborn child is human, almost everyone would agree that it would be morally wrong to terminate any pregnancy. Therefore, the argument isn't so much about rights and society but more about ethics and when life begins.

    I took a look at the site. I think most rational people would agree that there are several flaws in your argument and little to convince anyone that apes can express moral judgement. This site/study does nothing to convince me that gorillas can express genuine love or hate or any form of morality.

    Firstly, who's to define what's considered morality, especially for an ape? Moreover, how can we determine the credibility of the study? The ape is making a sign(s) that the people conducting the study have determined mean certain things (keep in mind these people want the study to be successful). This proves nothing.

    I won't go into this since it's so off topic, but I do not think overpopulation is really an issue.

    As Cogito mentioned, you could also classify someone with Alzheimer's or in a coma or some other disease or disability as not human. Unborn children can also respond to stimuli.

    As I mentioned in a response to mia, it's not so much an issue of legalities but morality. If an unborn child is, in fact human, then the courts should prevent abortions because it's murder (if the child is human).

    This is apparently contradictory. From your statement I assume you believe that an unborn child is the woman's body - in which case, why oppose third trimester abortions?
     
  13. Lord Midol

    Lord Midol New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    2
    The reason I view the third trimester as the cut off is because a fetus no longer needs its mother to survive after 22 weeks. So really, I view late 2nd as the cut off but its easier to state 3rd.

    As I said in the other thread, I consider it a person when it is viable outside of the mother. Till it is able to survive without its host it is not a person in my view.
     
  14. ThreeSided

    ThreeSided Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    I live in East Haven, Connecticut, USA.
    We all know how controversial this issue is. It's been going on for so long. Generally, my philosophy is that you should not make a standing decision until you have enough information to be sure of your accuracy.

    I do not think we really know or understand enough to come to any factual conclusion about the subject. This is why it comes down to opinion, and why so many people argue over it. It seems that the only thing all of us agree on in this subject is that it is a moral issue. So, what is this moral issue?

    The concept of murder seems to be the moral issue at hand. The idea that by taking this fetus' life, you are killing a living human being, committing one of the worst crimes in our society. The argument against this would be that the fetus, not being fully developed, is not yet a human; and therefore, killing it would not be considered murder. So, this question arises: Where is the line drawn?

    Scientifically speaking, a human fetus is just as human as a human baby. Accordingly, a human zygote and a human embryo are just as human.

    But, politically speaking, that line has not been drawn. And if you are discussing whether or not it should be made illegal, then we cannot decide based solely on political fact; because such a fact does not exist, and cannot be drawn for certainty or proven through political logic. So, it would only make sense that it be made perfectly legal, and that they allow the person to make the choice for themselves, depending on what they believe.

    Now, what you believe is a totally different story... The conclusion I have come to after thinking about this for quite a while is in no way a certain one. By discarding the mentioned scientific and political facts, we come to our own beliefs, which, believe it or not, can be considered more accurate when it comes to these kind of issues. This is because thoughts are not limited by the definitions of words. crossing the boundary of We can create our own words, which may mix more than one word,meaning, which is almost never cut in the right place for a certain issue. Put in another way: In the way we think, whether abortion is moral or not is not a matter of whether the fetus is human or not. The only reason we consider the killing of a human bad, politically is because it is defined as murder, which is against the law. But this brings up an interesting question: Why is it, really, that we consider murder bad, or immoral?

    Generally put, we can say that it is because death is undesirable, and because it is widely accepted that doing something undesirable to someone is considered immoral, murder is considered immoral. But then, even more interesting, is the question: Why is death undesirable? The reason we find death undesirable is not a single one. There are many. But the main one is that we are afraid of it. Perhaps it is the idea of leaving existence. But considering that most people are religious, and believe that we never really leave existence, the concept of fear of death is... odd. So, the answer of whether or not abortion is morally wrong depends on your postmortem beliefs.

    Atheietically speaking, that is the only reason to fear death. Because the atheist does not believe in a higher power, or any sort of life after death, the fact that the person would not be able to experience anything enjoyable after death is the only real reason to fear it. When applied to the fetus, one could argue that because it is not conscious, it has not, technically, experienced anything, and therefore, is in the same mental and/or unconscious state as a person is when they are dead. This is only, however, assuming that the fetus has no brain activity yet.

    Conclusion #1: An atheist can, according to my logic, safely assume that they are being perfectly moral about an abortion according to their beliefs IF the fetus is at a stage in which there is no brain activity.

    Now, I am not going to go into all the different religions, but I will go into Christianity, due to it's popularity amongst the western world, and its similarities to many other religions. Also, because there are many different types of Christianity, I will stick to mainly extreme Catholic Christianity, as to show the complete opposite side of the spectrum from atheism.

    Catholically speaking, the fear of death due to being unable to experience anything any more is much less than that of atheism. This is because the Christian believes in an existence after death. However, because this existence is not exactly that of the existence on earth, there is still the fear of losing the ability to do certain things. There is another factor, however: The Christian believes in two possible existences after death. That in heaven, which is the ideal, perfectly happy, existence, and Hell, which is the awful, horrific torturing existence. One supposedly makes it to heaven in Christianity by accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, and being a moral person, and vice-versa for hell. Now, if a fetus does not have thought, then it cannot accept, and if it cannot accept, than it cannot accept Jesus. Because of this, according to Christianity, the aborted fetus, assuming that it is considered by god a human, goes straight to hell. This being the fault of the human, is extremely immoral. If the human is defined by brain activity, which separates it from being alive or not alive:

    Conclusion #2: A heavy Christian can, according to my logic, safely assume that they are being perfectly moral about an abortion according to their beliefs IF the fetus is at a stage in which there is no brain activity.

    I swear to god... I only realized that the conclusion was the same while writing it, and that's why I just wrote it the exact same way..

    Holy crap, who woulda' known? o_O
     
  15. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    19,150
    Likes Received:
    1,034
    Location:
    Coquille, Oregon
    dictating to one person what that person can do with her own body is not a moral issue for anyone else... the morality issue here is the inalienable right each of us has to do what we wish with our own bodies... and, until that fetus is outside the body and living on its own, it is NOT a 'person'... and should not be considered one by any other than the person in whose body it lies...

    to think anything else is the height [depth!] of immorality... just as i said no one would want to be told how and when to expel his/her other bodily contents, you can't justify doing so in this particular case, merely because, if carried to term, the object might become a 'person'...

    for more on this, see "what part of 'NO!' do you not understand?":

    Says Mom - Writing Content
     
  16. SeaBreeze

    SeaBreeze Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,179
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    At the bar
    I see your point. Do they still have some sort of 'class' - ok, can't think of the correct word here, but at school and you get given special dolls that cry, pee, etc? And you have to take care of them as if they are a real baby? Maybe that should be compulsery. Perhaps, just to give teenagers etc an idea of what happens when you have a baby, and I'm not talking a couple of days, I'm talking a couple of months.

    Oh well.
     
  17. Bluemouth

    Bluemouth Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Messages:
    976
    Likes Received:
    19
    Location:
    Adelaide, Australia
    Well, it's a pretty famous study. I happen to believe everything that has been recorded and I'm certainly not alone. However, I can understand that others are more sceptical.

    While I know it's off-topic I couldn't resist. Firstly, this was in relation to Australia and you don't live in Australia. Secondly, I've studied this issue in the past and the recent widespread droughts across the country have diminished most major water supplies dramatically. At the rate Australia is starting to grow our population will eventually become unsustainable. The main problem with urban sprawl is that we're expanding out to areas without suitable water resources and, in the process, are destroying our limited 'liveable' areas. So when you combine overpopulation on already limited water supplies, it's not going to mix. I live in the driest capital of the driest state of the driest continent in the world. Trust me, it's a major issue.
     
  18. Ferret

    Ferret New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2006
    Messages:
    556
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The parts of your soul you refuse to recognize.
    Y'know, I love you people, but I do not have an attention span nearly long enough to get through all these posts.
    It's all a matter of responsibility, if you ask me. You've proven that you're an Adult by, uh... bumping uglies, so now you better start acting like it.
     
  19. forgotenmemory

    forgotenmemory New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2007
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    I'm trying to blow bubles :o
    I have no problem with abortion, I know a close person who had one.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice