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  1. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    Advertising someone with military knowledge

    Discussion in 'General Writing' started by Stamfors, Sep 30, 2021.

    I'm writing this story about somebody joining the military in the hopes to become 'a man.' His father has leverage in the military because of his past accomplishments and arranges that his son is sent on a relatively harmless mission. Their job is to secure an island off the coast that is contested until reinforcement come so they can fortify it properly before the enemy can. At least, that's what they've been told.

    Anyway, I'm having trouble imagining how the soldiers for such a mission is selected. Do they have a special type of unit for such things? Do they advertise it and the soldiers themselves can pick and choose or do they simply pick a platoon and everyone goes there?

    This is set around WW1 era-ish. The world is imaginary but I still want it to be somewhat believable. I'm leaning towards the soldiers being misfits and did poorly during basic training or they just don't care that much and the military is happy to get rid of them.
     
  2. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I would say it's EXTREMELY unlikely that any country's military would send a bunch of misfits to secure a contested island. I also don't think you can fairly describe a mission to a contested island as "relatively harmless."

    You mentioned that the assignment includes fortifying the island. Erecting fortifications is what combat engineers do, and what I trained for when I was in the (U.S.) Army during the Vietnam dust-up. Engineers build roads, bridges, airfields, and fortifications, as well as performing mine clearing and demolition operations. Individual soldiers would not be selected for such an assignment; a company (or a battalion, depending on the size of the island and the contesting force) would be mobilized as a unit.

    https://wwvets.org/veterans-of-world-war-1/army-engineers-in-ww1/
     
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  3. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    Well, maybe 'contested' was a bad word. There is no other foreign force on the island. They're there, just in case, because the war hadn't started yet, though tension is high on the border.

    Also, they are not fortifying the island themselves, they're just there to put dibs on the island, so to speak, until the engineers come.

    Does it make sense?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
  4. EFMingo

    EFMingo A Modern Dinosaur Supporter Contributor

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    No, not really. When a force is claiming an island, they aren't just dropping a few troops there and calling it a day until engineers are somehow ready. This would be a planned and executed event in full measure, likely part of a greater naval effort to secure waters. Island claims are rarely ever about the land. They're about the local sea position or ability to build a port/airfield. Most likely, this island is already claimed and mapped as someone else's land as well, so anyone stepping on the island that wasn't supposed to be would be considered an invading force.

    A country's military isn't going to just a run up a landing craft with a couple of squads and call it a day. They're going to come with a force so there's no question about the island's security and what they're establishing. What most people miss is the need for supply ships to come in just as much or more than an established force. You have to feed and support the force you just dropped there, no matter how small. And the ones that are trained to survived on their own in obscure places are expensive and rare, so they wouldn't be used for an assumed 'trivial' mission. The engineers, which @SapereAude mentions above, are critical to the initial movement onto the island. They would come after the initial scouting verification force, but by literal hours, not days or weeks. These groups work hand-in-hand with different jobs within the military to effectively complete their mission. The mission is something you seem to need to work out. It always takes more people working simultaneously to complete any given mission than you would think.
     
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  5. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    What's the overall tone of the story? Is it a comedy? As soon as I read this I could see Bill Murray or John Candy leading a rag-tag troop of idiots and failures with a big montage where they all somehow get it together and pull through on the last day.

    Or is it somewhat whimsical, but not really full-on comedy? I could see that too.
     
  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    One exception to this is not unknown for the forces to 'volunteer' people that don't fit in for hazardous missions - its well recorded that in ww1 a lot of the people 'volunteered' for the royal flying corps (who had a life expectancy in the air of less than 15 minutes) were those who weren't generally considered an asset to their units

    the same was true when the SAS were reconstituted after ww2 for the malayan emergency... some were genuine volunteers who wanted to fight, but an awful lot were 'volunteered' by the their COs who wanted rid of them (ironically some of these people went on to be the best troopers because the things that made them a liability on garrison duty were more positive qualities on detached duty)

    We also shouldnt forget project 100,000 (aka McNamara's morons)... a somewhat cynical decision to recruit low IQ soilders to be cannon fodder in vietnam despite them not otherwise meeting military minimums.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
     
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  7. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    There's a couple problems I see with this, some might even be borderline plot holes. But you haven't fully explained 1. What the exact mission is that these misfits are TOLD and 2. What the real mission or goal is that is kept secret. But first I just want to point out (and I have no military experience, so take it with a grain of salt) but soldiers don't usually have the opportunity to 'pick and choose' assignments.

    One of the issues I have with it is that you said that is father has influence and has gotten him a relatively safe and cushy assignment. This would be inappropriate, but is certainly plausible. But, if the father was so high ranking, wouldn't he also be privy to whatever other dangers or schemes existed?

    If it's a comedy, it could be something like the movie 'Spies Like Us' where a bunch of misfits are sent as decoys. Otherwise it doesn't sound too believable, assuming the island itself has any strategic significance. Even if the military assembled some team ad hoc, they'd probably want better fit soldiers. Also, I don't know how realistic the whole 'quickly assembled super team' even is, I'd think the military would prefer a cohesive unit that has trained together for a long time versus a team of elite individuals that have never met each other, but hopefully more knowledgeable members can provide input on this.

    You could create some contrived plot where this unit IS some subpar group on like latrine duty and for some reason, they are the only unit that could get there in time (or, that is what they are mean to believe).

    Your general plot might sound more believable if it were some covert/black ops mission, but your main characters wouldn't be in such units.
     
  8. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    The real mission is to keep one specific person from the frontlines. He comes from a family that was responsible for a lot of atrocities during the last conflict and they don't want to stoke tension by keeping him around. The securing the island for future use is just a front.

    The MC father was a decorated war hero but he isn't in active duty anymore. He has many friends high up that can help him.
     
  9. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    It has pretty serious tones because the main character (Banks) is someone who wants to prove himself but is forced from the frontlines while a friend of his, who's also on the same mission chose to stay away from danger and don't give a crap about the war (his family have military tradition so that's why he's in the military to begin with)

    I kinda work with the opposite mindsets... Maybe the friend could be Platoon leader, or something. They all know each other and Banks come in as an outsider.
     
  10. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    The thing is, the securing the island mission is just a ruse but I want the ruse to be believable which it seems it cannot be, at least not for people knowledgable with military matters. I think I just have to own up to this because I see no other reason why they would send a small force to an island and a safe one at that. Maybe could acknowledge that it is stupid but the MC is too gullible to realise and the other soldiers just don't care because it keeps them far away from the frontlines, which is what they want.
     
  11. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    the thing is that's a daft reason for a mission - if an army wants to keep someone from the frontlines they post them to a rear echelon job ... they don't send them on a mission

    Also in the Ww1 and before time frame atrocities weren't really a thing... the sort of thing we think of as a war crime today was just business as usual... if you look for example at things the British did to the Boers, or the Turks did to the allies... hell some of the things that most armies did to their own men as field punishment would be considered an atrocity today

    if you want a reason why the army doesnt want someone around it would be more plausible that they were a coward ... lack of moral fibre was far more serious than chopping up a bunch of enemy prisoners
     
  12. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    Maybe you are right, I can't get it to work in my mind either.

    How about this: The war criminals son (we are talking genocide here) is part of a family that's basically royalty so nothing would happen to him within the Empire. But as the Emperor's right hand he is also handling foreign affairs and the son don't want to be worse than his father. He's arrogant and is determined to go on a diplomatic mission to the enemy land. However, the council just see trouble from this and they arrange so that his transport ship is stranded on the island where they will be stuck for a while.

    Or something like that.
     
  13. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Even genocide wasn't that big a deal back then... in the 2nd Boer War Baron the lord Kitchener oversaw the setting up of concentration camps for the Boer civilians - 26,000 Boer women and children died... questions were asked in parliament and the fawcett commision established to investigate, but no political harm or censure attached to Kitchener

    Not long afterwards the Ottoman empire inflicted a genocide on the armenians killing around 1.5 million through starvation and forced marches... although 18 officials were tried by the allies after the end of ww1 and 3 ultimately executed, inside Turkey it was seen as a perfectly legitimate policy...

    a point of note being that the term was coined in 1944, in 1914 it wasn't even a thing... and the systematic killing of your national enemies was regarded as a sovereign right
     
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  14. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    well whatever, if I was an Arminian or a boer or whatever I’d be pissed and thats whats gonna happen.

    thx for the advice, though.
     
  15. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yes but his own side wouldn't consider him a war criminal

    if you want some background on payback for people who commited that kind of offence you could look at operation nemesis in the 20s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nemesis where the Armenians went after the main perpetrators of the genocide

    if you look at the dates and locations a key thing is that they're not carried out on armenian (or mostly ottoman) territory... the assassins went after their targets on neutral soil, the same was true for the isreali operations going after ex nazi's... so your side won't keep anyone safe by stranding them on an island
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2021
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  16. Stamfors

    Stamfors Banned

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    thx, I’m honestly so pissed at this story right now. It kinda makes sense but then I come to a point when it doesn’t and I’ve done too much work already that I don’t want to give up but I’m so close to erasing everything.

    I guess you have to accept defeat sometimes
     
  17. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    But @Stamfors could use that to their advantage. Well...maybe.

    I've probably watched too much melodramatic tv or Tarantino films but there could be a scene, during a lull after the misfits repulse the first wave:

    MC: "That attack made no sense. Why would they risk so many men for this island? It's barely big enough for a helicopter pad."

    Misfit #1: "I don't know. But what was that one guy saying? One of the ones that made it inside. Something about Camp Desirée.

    War crime suspect: "How could you make out what he said? We were in the middle of a firefight. He could have been saying Viva La France for all we know."

    Misfit #1: "I heard what he said! The shooting had almost stopped. And he was looking right at you when he said it, right before I finished him off with my sidearm."
     
  18. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I have no idea how the Swedish military is organized. In the U.S., platoon leaders are 2nd or 1st Lieutenants -- commissioned officers -- and they don't pal around with the enlisted men who serve under them. If they aren't West Point (or Annapolis, for the Marines) graduates, they will have gone though either ROTC (Reserve Officer Training Corps) or OCS (Officer Candidate School). It's unlikely that a screw-up, misfit, or otherwise useless piece of baggage would be a platoon leader.
     
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  19. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    Respectfully, I think you need to set the manuscript aside and sit back for a few minutes to rethink the basic premise. Either you are changing things willie-nillie to try to force a shaky story to work, or there are elements you haven't told us.

    For example, in your opening post you wrote:

    So we begin with someone who is just another bloke looking to prove himself in some nebulous way. His father has leverage ("leverage" implies power and direct influence, as opposed to "connections," which implies friends who might be called up for favors) with the military.

    Now, suddenly, he is "basically" royalty (whatever that is -- I always thought you either were royalty, or you weren't). If the young MC is "basically" royalty, then his father is also "basically" royalty. And, depending on where the father stands in the royal line of succession, and how the country is organized, that might or might not give him (the father) more leverage with the military. But not necessarily. Prince Charles of England was, I believe, in the military for awhile -- but he didn't actually do anything and, as crown prince, he has essentially zero say in military matters. Could he secure a commission as a supply officer for the son of a chum? Probably, but that's about it.

    Prince Andrew, for all his failings, actually went into combat in the Falklands War, and rather distinguished himself IIRC. Princes William and Harry both served, and Harry saw two combat deployments in the sandbox (until the media let the enemy know he was there, thus painting targets on both his back and his forehead). But I'm quite certain (for no particular reason) that neither Charles, Andrew, William nor Harry could ever get the British military to concoct a mission for the sole purpose of either (a) keeping a chum's son out of harm's way, or (b) giving a chum's son a chance to see "real" adventure on a contrived mission with no real strategic purpose.

    What I'm suggesting is that you may not need to abandon the story, but I think you need to get a better handle on who your characters are, and get a better idea of how the military works vis-a-vis the royal family in your fictional country. Once you have that worked out, then you should be in a better place to write (or re-write) the story.
     
  20. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    speaking as someone who was a platoon leader i wouldnt be too sure, not everyone who came through as an officer was exactly the sharpest tool in the box... vis for example the guy who got lost in a 3 mile square woodland for three fucking hours... he'd probably still be there if we hadn't sent a sergeant to find him.

    I don't know how true it is in the US, but the UK forces certainly have their share of rodneys* who got their commission because daddy went to school with someone in the high command... that's why they say that the three most dangerous things in the army are ' a private with an idea, a lieutenant with a map, or a colonel with a daughter'

    *Rodney - term of abuse for a stupid officer, see also Rupert, but all public school wankers are Ruperts, they can't help it, only the absolute donkeys are Rodneys
     
  21. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    For the record, this member has been banned as a duplicate account for a member that had been previously banned (maybe not technically banned, but warned many, many times). We normally don't discuss the reasons for banning a member, but in this case--and in the interests of transparency--I didn't want it to appear as if he was being banned for being disagreeable.

    As a friendly reminder, duplicate accounts are not allowed under any circumstances. Your friendly moderation team thanks you for your support and understanding.

    :closed:
     
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