Hey all, I just joined this forum so I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this message, it felt like the best spot for these kind of questions. Anyway, I'm writing my first novel and I'm looking for an alternative way to determine time. I don't want to use the usual hour system as I feel it doesn't fit in my story. I have been using midday, morning and night though. I don't mind these 'Indicators'? I just don't like to say things such as: "Let's meet at one o'clock" "See you in half an hour" At this moment I'm using things such as: "Let's meet after second patrol" "He said he would be here after first patrol" "Meet me at my office after the guards shift" (My novel includes guards and such. That's where the first, second... patrol comes from) I have been thinking of a way to determine my own Time System, but I'm not sure how or if I should do that. I have also been thinking about alternatives for the aforementioned time notations (first patrol, etc.) and for an alternative for "Half an hour". Mostly because I'm struggling with things such as in this context: "I was there just before second patrol and she didn't mention anything about closing early" "Hmm. I was there .... (ten minutes ago) and there was no one." I hope this all makes sense and that I was clear with what I mean.
Four bells in the dog watch (Hornblower) grains, as in grains of sand through an hour glass, Paces, the time it takes to walk from point A to B, degrees, the angle of the sun. Just get creative
They could use the movement of the sun, or the timing of certain jobs/tasks around this (castle, is it?). But if timekeeping is generally important in your world, then there would be some sort of time pieces or a very established system anyway. If timekeeping isn't that important in general, then your characters wouldn't need to be very precise with it either and wouldn't mind waiting.
Your suggestion of the bells is interesting, now I have to figure out how to make a solid system out of that. I was also thinking about hour glasses and water clocks, but the problem with this is: how do I describe certain periods of time such as ten minutes, twenty minutes, half an hour and such. Maybe saying "ten grains, twenty grains" for the hour glass. Or ten drops for the water clock. But how would I describe the hours? The angle of the sun has come up in my mind too, but how would I describe that? Ps. I'm Dutch and although I think my English isn't bad at all, I do struggle with some aspects that go more into depth.
The first part of my book is taking place in a city that consists of a Citadel in the centre and rings around it. Center: Citadel (where the politicians work) first ring: Elites (Politicians and rich/powerful people live here) so basically a lot of mansions and villas are here second ring: High ranked guards and slightly wealthy people third ring: "Common" people (this is where most of my characters live) Note: The ring concept was in my initial concept but as the story developed the rings kind of lost meaning. But maybe I could use the rings as time system? Time is quite important I would say. There is a conspiracy going on and people have to meet each other and arrange these meetings. Overall I have to use things as these a lot: "I was there ten minutes ago and she wasn't home" "It's still early midday, so let's say we meet at the entrance at ... (late midday or early evening would be too vague I think) I'm sorry if I'm not clear in my description and explanation but it's a little hard to explain.
I just finished a novel that was set in the early 1800s. Of course at that time you couldn't meet your friends at 5 PM because they wouldn't have a watch. Aboard ship I did use the eight bells and so on, but most time periods were based on things like....I will meet you in the late after noon, or in the morning after breakfast. Although I still used hours as in waiting but not in travel time (like Californians) it was still how far you had to go and the time was what it felt like IE...It took forever.
Historically church bells were used to ring the time. The concept of an hour is much older then most people think. Whilst the time can be argued, it certainly predates Christianity as the ancient babylonians came out with hour and seconds. So I would say all least a minimum of 1000 years prior to christianity. Probably around 1700BC at the earliest. But I would say confidently around 2000 to 2500 BC they had such hours and (though under different names)
In my story there is no religion, thus no churches. I could always include a bell tower anyway of course. But the setting of my story is loosely based on Ancient Greece with a mix of different periods ranging from as early as 1194 BCE to 280 BCE mixed with Ancient Rome. I decided to set my story in such a wide range of periods to give myself some freedom with weapons, names, etc. I did some research about timekeeping in Ancient Greece and Rome and the sundial, water clock and sand-clock were used. Based on this research and the useful answers I received on this thread, I'm thinking about making a combination of a few things like the water clocks and sand-clocks, shift of guards, start and end of patrols and more broad terms such as cockcrow, midday, high sun, evening, sun set, night, high moon etc. I wonder what you all think about this. I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this. I want to thank everyone who replied in this thread, all of the answers were really useful. Please don't stop replying, as every piece of information is still always welcome!!!
How about? Two gentlemen are standing outside a pub in an alleyway. "Let's meet later." The gentleman suggests. "Okay, where/when?" The other gentleman asks. "Back here when they're closing." The gentleman answered. So they agreed to do it, they would meet back later when the pub was closing.
If you're determined to avoid the word hour, I say go with what you've mentioned above. I think all of these ideas - in combination - are infinitely better than the creation of some random term for a measurement of time for which the reader will have no referent. All the things you've mentioned so far make sense, they parse, and relate data to the reader. "I'll see you in two glerks. No wait, I have to stop by Ted's first, so make that three glerks"... That makes no sense, has no meaning, references nothing in my mind that ties me to happenstances within the story.
I did my book in Rome and China @100AD and had the same issue. Generally, I used the sun in the sky as a good reference, so sunrise, first light, about an hour before sunset. Night time could have been more problematic, but it didn't come up as often. If it did, the sky was just beginning to turn gray with dawn, midnight, the moon was just rising, etc. Mine were traveling so they didn't have any timekeepers, but I think most of the people of that era, especially travelers, could look at the night sky and read it as well as a clock. No light pollution except in big cities and not much there either. And daylight, by the sun. Fine measures of time just were not available, minutes etc. were just not used except under special circumstances (which I didn't have) such as Senate speeches or testimony/arguments before a judge, I know these were timed by waterclocks (clepsydra). Hourglasses (clepsammia) were not used until about 1000AD, though there is a disputed one dating to 350AD. I had two instances of precise timekeeping. Mine one was historical fiction, not fantasy, but I dealt with the lighthouse on Pharos at Alexandria. I wanted (since nobody could tell me that it didn't) that it would flash brightly during the day, and also rotate the reflection of a fire at the base during the night. I solved that with two mirrors at the top, one fixed at a forty-five degree angle, reflective on both side, the other above at a variable angle that moved with each rotation of the refector on a gearing system that would keep it aimed at the sun throughout the day and pointing down toward the reflector. The whole mechanism was turned by a donkey, led by a man, to complete one revolution per some particular step of the waterclock. The solar mirror had to be set to a new position daily, before sunrise. At night, the waterclock wasn't needed, but the night watch kept it turning, to reflect a fire built at the base. All that was well within the mathematical and technical capabilities of the era. Didn't really go into the details of all this, just a quick observation by someone who had been up to the top and saw it in operation, answering somebody's question. This actually has some advantages, since the light was 40 stories up, and probably required a lot of fuel. Much easier to build the fire in the base and let a mirror up top catch the glow. And reflecting the sun makes sense too, since the light from a fire would hardly be visible in the day, though the smoke might. Also in Rome, at the imperial palace, someone rang a gong at fifteen minute intervals timed by waterclock. That was used to alert the Emperor Trajan that it was time for him to begin his walk down the forum to meet the Senate. Other than that I didn't use precise time, because I don't think they did. Hours were quite different in the era you are working with. There were twelve hours of daylight, and twelve hours night, year round, so the hour changed over quite a wide range in a year, in Italy from 9/12th to 15/12th. Other measures you might use would be "watches" in a military setting, probably four to six hours. They probably used "the clockface in the sky" to determine when to send someone to wake up the relief.
Thank you for you response! You're definitely right, creating a new system with new words isn't going to work and will only confuse me as writer and the readers. What I'm thinking of is something like "it's the second bowl after midday" meaning something like 2 pm: it's past midday and 2 bowls of the water clock have been drained. For more precise timekeeping for minutes for example I could use smaller bowls or jars of water. That would mean there is a huge water clock with large bowls for the hours and smaller for the minutes or maybe a smaller one for every ten or fifteen minutes. I have to do more research on water clocks though to see if this would be possible. But I was thinking about some sort of wheel with big bowls (hours) and small bowls (quarters of an hour), the bowl of the current hour slowly empties and fills the bowl of the first quarter. When the first quarter is full it empties into the second quarter. The small bowls empty into a large bowl so the quarters fill the next hour bowl slowly. ..... While I'm writing this and thinking about it, I realise that it doesn't work like this as physics don't work like that. I'm going to do some research and continue this post later .
I'm just wondering how that would work in practice. If the bowl clock is in the middle of the building, how would somebody working at the far end of the building know what time it is? Are they going to just nip to see the clock every now and then? Or how about somebody who is outside the building, do they just walk in to check the time?
I have given it some thought and I came up with the following: A giant wheel with two big bowls for the hours, one on top and one on the bottom. In between are four smaller bowls for the quarters. The first hour bowl empties into the first quarter bowl, when the first quarter bowl is full it “tips over” and empties in to the hour bowl at the bottom and the quarter bowls stays “tipped over”. Then the second quarter bowl starts to fill and also “tips over” when it’s full, this goes on for the third and fourth quarter bowls until the top hour is completely empty and the bottom hour bowl is full. When the top hour bowl is empty it triggers a mechanism that makes the giant wheel turn and brings the full bottom hour bowl to the top again and the process starts over again. I’m not sure if this works, physics and all that but I really like the idea. I’m really curious about your thoughts.
The biggest part of my novel is set in the city itself, just small bits are taking place inside the Citadel. So there could be multiple water clocks spread all over the city, on every square or major crossroads. Also, every house or just every shop or tavern could have their own clocks. However, people would still have to find a water clock. Maybe I should still get a bell tower, so people have a slight indication of the time.
Haven't read the whole thread in depth- but I've read stuff too about how in olden times they'd also have candles made designed to take hours to burn and cut lines approximately on the hour. That way they could use the candles to tell time too. It seems I read this in a book about castles so it may be a thing to do for a person that had the wealth to spend on special made candles.
All those different clocks need some sort of means to keep them running on the same time. A bell tower could come in handy for that, people could use it to know when their home clocks are running fast or slow and adjust accordingly. Then you'll need to have somebody change the candles every hour and all the time the family is not home. It's too much of a chore.
I love the candle idea! I read about the time candles some time and saw some pictures of such candles. However, most of my story takes place outside, so the candles won't really work. But I'm putting it my notes, one never knows where a story takes them haha
Exactly! It seems that the bells are unavoidable. So I'm just going to add them and make them synchronised with the bowls. A heavy bell sound for the hours and a softer bell sound for the quarters.
