Antagonist not being the Villain?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by cosmic lights, Apr 11, 2019.

  1. pullatapuss

    pullatapuss Banned

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    Why was it a major failing?
     
  2. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    The Silmarillion was written first, but publishers rejected it for being 'too Celtic,' which got Tolkien started on Lord of The Rings. So that's the publishers fault and not Tolkiens.
     
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  3. pullatapuss

    pullatapuss Banned

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    Tolkein never finished The Silmarillion. His son completed it and published it after JRR Tolkein's death. source:Wikipedia.

    But in the context of this thread, the key point is that for 20 years, readers had no idea of Sauron's motives. And that is Tolkein's "fault," because he could easily have had Gandalf or Galadriel or someone explain. He did not seem to feel the need.
     
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  4. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Or, you know, it was important to the story.

    "And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge."
    Try explaining that line when you've got multiple people just hanging out with a full knowledge of the Dark Lord and his motives. It also makes no sense that anyone involved in LoTR would know Sauron's motives. He was a defeated enemy from 2500 years ago whose minions were hunted down and slaughtered after the war, whose language was rarely spoken outside Mordor, and who all trace of which was practically eradicated from Middle Earth.
     
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  5. pullatapuss

    pullatapuss Banned

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    So you are agreeing with me that it is fine for an author to not state the reason why a villian does stuff. Good. However:
    I guess if you only saw the movies, you might not understand why my post named Galadrial and Gandalf. Do you not know how old she is, or what he is?
     
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  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Could we turn the heat in this thread down a little please - its a discussion not an argument, also lets get back on track.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  7. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    Obi-sem Kenobi -
    Very good question, maybe the reason I'm having so much trouble with my plot is because I don't know the answer to this question.

    I've seen The Matrix, but many years ago and it blew my mind! Lol. But I'll take your advice and go rent it. My local Library has it. I love watching movies so thank you. I don't expect to understand it this time around, either.


    Reece - “Slaves in other realms” - Umm...I haven't thought that far yet. If she had other slaves she could just expand one realm and put them altogether, might be easier.

    No, it's good to know if people will be asking the same questions; shows how important those questions are to answer.


    Pullatapuss and The Dapper Hooligan (first great names!) Interesting. But I think I would prefer to give the “witch” a reason. Like someone else said, identifying her motives would help.

    Thanks, I am writing all these questions down.
     
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  8. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Ay, and you'll recall that in the books it took Gandalf somewhere around 50 years too come to the realization that Bilbo's ring was The One True Ring, despite being in close proximity to it and despite being sent to Middle Earth specifically to deal with Sauron. Theme is people forget and history repeats itself.
     
  9. pullatapuss

    pullatapuss Banned

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    I think that is highly speculative. The ring Bilbo found in The Hobbit shows no signs of being The One Ring in the first edition of The Hobbit. Gollum does not even mind losing it. After Tolkein began writing LotR, he altered the 2nd edition of The Hobbit to support the new identity of the ring. Source:Wikipedia, The Hobbit

    To answer my previous questions:
    Gandalf is one of the Maia, as is Sauron, and is literally older than M.E..
    Galadrial was born in the Valinor, lived in the light of the Two Trees, and heard Mandos pronounce The Doom of the Noldor. She is about 8400 years old during LotR.
     
  10. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    But even after Gandalf suspected it was The One Ring on Bilbo's One Hundred and Eleventieth, it still took him close to 20 years to figure it out, again, despite being the wisest of the Istar.
     
  11. pullatapuss

    pullatapuss Banned

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    If he suspected, he must not have forgotten.

    But back to the topic: Some characters in LotR could have known Sauron's motives, but Tolkein chose not to disclose it in LotR. I do not think the trilogy suffers from the omission or that it was important to the story one way or the other. Emulating Tolkein in this regard is the writer's choice.
     
  12. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Alright, but I'm going to call you on this next time I 'don't forget' our anniversary.
     

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